The dyno numbers are in...

[Kevwood]

Okay guys, I forgot to post these results. For a long time there has been a lot of speculation as to what the drivetrain losses of the 4T60E and Getrag 284 are. I have these numbers for you;

Engine in my red car with the 4T60E -> 225 WHP
Engine in my white car with 284 -> 240 WHP (before additional tunning and u/d pulley)

This was taken out of the red car and dropped right into the white car, NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER.

So, 15 WHP difference. I was told by a few GM tech's, two different tranny rebuilders and a tuner of these w-body cars that the 4T60E has a drivetrain loss of about 25% & the Getrag 284 has a loss of about 18%. Michael at FFP also uses the 18% loss to calculate his WHP (265 - 18% = 217.3 or 218 WHP) I believe these numbers to be true, look at this;

240-225=15 OR 225/240=93%, a 7% difference.
25% 4T60E loss - 18% 284 loss = 7% difference.

So, there is no question that there is 7% difference between the transmissions. One 'mystery' down, lot's to go...

P.S. The FFP pulley was exactly 5 WHP, virtually no difference in voltage and no difference in operating temp! Great bang for the buck!

[OldSkoolGP]

This may have already been asked, but what computer are you using to control the engine? Is it a GM stock PCM? Also, can Lightspeed tune OBDII? I'm converting my setup to OBDII over the winter and it's be nice if someone could apply the same tuning knowhow to my setup as you had.

[timg]

Great #'s. I'll have to contact them. I was just in Edmonton in June- hopefully next time I can brng my car.

I'll also be converting to OBD2 over the winter and tuning it via PowrTuner + WBO2. I already have all of the parts, I just need my other car back so that I can tear into my Monte. I will have a piggyback that can do ignition timing and fuel on any GM MAF V6 for sale this fall/winter. I have taken EFI 101 and EFI advanced, tuned the AEM in my S2000, and installed and tuned a TEC3 on a Polaris RMK 600cc engine. I'm hoping that I'll be able to draw out quite a bit of power from my setup.

tim

[Kevwood]

Timg & Oldskool

Yes Lightspeed can tune OBD II. Just before my car got up on the dyno they were working on a 2005 Mote Carlo Intimidator SS - beautifull car! They installed a new exhaust, s/c pulley, air intake and tuned it. It was a rocket when it was done.

[Guest]

Wow its somewhat unsurprising that I haven't received a pm yet on what the heads flow cfm wise.

I guess flow numbers are a big secret.

Oh well.

[Kevwood]

...I haven't received a pm yet on what the heads flow cfm wise...

I was in Red Deer at his shop yesterday doing a re-torque on all the mounts. I asked him why he hasn't replied to these questions yet, he has been busy and hasn't been on line for a while. I will PM you with his email address.

[Guest]

Why didnt' you just ask him if you could share the numbers with the forum? That way we dont' have to wait for him to get time to do it and if he has no problem then you could just post them yourself.

[Kevwood]

Why didnt' you just ask him if you could share the numbers with the forum? That way we dont' have to wait for him to get time to do it and if he has no problem then you could just post them yourself.

***edited because I was being an asshole****

Again Shaun, I have been asked to direct all questions about the heads to Lightspeed Innovations. I sent him an email, I reminded him yesterday at his shop that you were waiting, I sent you his email address on a PM and just got of the phone with him. When he answers, he answers.

[Dr.Lightspeed]

OK first things first.
Respect a guy because he doesn't sell out someones trade secrets. Kevin has been nothing but respectful of our technology.

Shaun there is no flow numbers you are thinking of a conventional flowbench. This is not a conventional flowbench as you know. I will describe slightly the procedure and hopefully this will end all the conversations. The only reason slightly is because at this time I do not wish to release our technology. You will be able to purhase one of these flow benches in the future after the patent attourneys are done. Many years ago Pratt&Whitney did some internal combustion engine experiments which were only slightly released to the public. This was based upon the ability of completely improving the combustion cycle by changing the pattern of air and improving the burn cycle. Thus without changing compression or cylindrical volume improve upon the volumetric efficiency of an engine. (the reason degreeing the cams works is that you are actually increasing static compression as well as a couple other things). I believe we have picked up where they left off and have even gone a few steps farther. Imagine this lets use a fully ported head flowing 400 CFM for example. Now this head flows huge numbers but fuel washes and makes the cylinder inefficient at say 43 degrees BTC. In otherwords as the compression cycle is starting the turbulence and vacuum( yes there is a vacuum force that takes place during the compression cycle) make the fuel mixture erradict and force the various densitys outward of the flame front so it only burns so much fuel. Now your tuner is probally watching the AFR's he sees you are rich so turns down the fuel to get the AFR he is looking for. Now most tuners never watch a five gas analyzer or a pyro or better yet a combustion temperature and pressure analyzer( this would take 1 day on most engines to set up). So they set your fuel trims to match the AFR they are looking for. Now this is good but now what efficiency is your cylinder actually at. SO you know how much CFM are flowed at .400 lift but did you ever calculate the amount of fuel that is being put into the cylinder to make the AFR perfect. Would you be surprised if it was only 50-60 percent of the actual capacity of the cylinder. So maybe only 240 CFM are actually being used by the combustion cycle. In otherwords the flame front acts like a wall and pushes the the other 160CFM away from the burn cycle and traps the O2 in carbon and pushes it out the exhaust where other neat things happen. Now lets take a different flow rating say 320 CFM and lets through port, piston and combusiton chanmber design bring this less flowing port to 85 percent volume efficiency. You will see that this design is actually using 272 CFM of air to achieve its efficiency rating. This engine with nothing else done to it is making in the range of 13% more efficincy.This is called dynamic volumetric efficiency improvement. Now how do you achieve this well old school tells us to max the valves and open everything right up what if I said alot of time closing it up would have a better result. With this discussion we havn't even got into the the exhaust scavenging and how that effects everything. Without actually describing our equipment I will say this if you could look into a cylinder and actually see the dynamics of volume efficiency could you change it. Now if you could see the different densitys mixing by color could you change the dynamics and the answer is yes. What if you could watch how they move in relationship to piston surface design and position.Now you may start to get the idea of how a dynamic volume efficiency wet bench works. So just like I am shure your girlfriend tells you "honey size doesn't matter it how you use it". Now on the flipside take this same technology and make that 400 CFM port work and you have created a NA monster.

Now for the second part of my post I am discusted with the childlike behavior of some of the members of this site. One post to Kevin described quite simply you only have this because you have thrown nothing but money in it. The others for the last two years have been callin BS because he didn't have a video of his dyno runs. Other so called experts sayin you can't make power above 6100 rpm. The source then went to say he was using a header tuned for 6800 rpm how do you tune a header for 6800 rpm when your car felloff at 6100 sounds like somebody was just selling something. Can't everyone just get along. The other thing was Kev never hid anything from anybody he just respected me enough not describe what he did. The truth is my company is a technolgy company I only put this work into the car when Kev was a rep for Kenwood and this car was out in the public eye. My company pays for doing R&D like this by selling parts and doing the odd custom car as well as tuning. I wasn't born with a silver spoon so I have to pay for R&D somehow and govn't grants are a little hard to get sometimes. Also this last engine transfer Kev did pretty much himself except for a few little things and you will see that by all the pictures he took. I only did this car to see if it could be done. We did it and now want to take it alittle farther. I am not trying to sell port work or engines or anything of this nature matter of fact I decided when all the bashing was going on last year that this head design would stay with this car giving it something unique. Anyways my rant is over and I hope this bickering and bashing quits.

[Guest]

Oh dont' give me that. I was doing nothing of the sort. I just wanted flow numbers because someone else here posted flow numbers last year and I wanted to compare to those to see how yours differed. THAT IS ALL

I dont' care what you think my motives were. It wasn't to call BS about his dyno numbers. I just wanted to know flow numbers. I didnt' ask any indepth questions of the technical aspect of what you had done to the heads. But by judging from the pic, if those are Kev's heads then it looks like you didnt' do shit. And from all the jargon it seems you changed the piston dome design to help increase the comb eff. Great good for you.

Get off your high horse. I asked for flow numbers. But it appears that you dont' have any. If you didnt' have any, then just say you dont' have any.

Oh and by the way, I will go ahead and ask you for flow numbers in a pm taht way you dont' think I was doign this all just to call BS.

[Kevwood]

Well that didn't seem to go too well

I think that you guys should keep it on a PM basis from here on out or we're going to end up with a locked thread.

Shaun, that is a pic of my heads, but the finished product looks quite different. I'm sure that when my photobucket album is done here in the next few days you will be able to see a better pic of the finished product. Cam isn't busting your chops because of your questions, it's just that we have both taken a lot of shit over the past few years about this damn motor and sometimes it's easy to 'let go'. I've seen pics of the heads you've done and they look great, you guys both have lot's to share in that catagory I'm sure. He is a fantastic tuner and a really great guy to get involved in a conversation with - I hope you guys can get that established over PM.

[Dr.Lightspeed]

Shaun fair enough there has just been so much bashing that has come from this site I think Kev and now myself is just a little edggy. Maybe I came off a little strong and I appologize. I will edit my post so not as to attack you. You would come off that way if you had recieved as much shit as Kev did over this project. First off the dyno numbers were photoshopped and then it was a SC 3800 and then and then.

Then Kevs Red Lumina got written off so more calling on the numbers and more crap.
Then because he took an extra few weeks getting this car built we got called on even more.
Then we got Arron feeding another member crap and Kev gets a personal email that just attacks him on how much money he must have to get a car this fast. Well to Arron who is reading all these posts fast cars cost money.
Have I taken this personally oh yea should have I probally not.

If anyone knew how much of an enthusiast Kevin is about these cars no one would bad mouth him let me tell you a story that will blow your doors off.

Kevin first approached me about doing a chip for his car and then talked to me about this project he was going to do Mega watt stereo show car. I gotta be honest I did a deal with him on his chip and then about 6 months later he shows up with this Crazy stereo car. Well to make a long story short Kevin was one of the top Kenwood stereo salespeople and had built this competition car. Actually he won or was one of the top inhis class everytime he competed. We then started the engine job and were convinced that the power was in the heads. SO the engine was built and put in the car. We spent the next 6 months sorting out everything in the car we had electrical gremlins like you wouldn't believe. Turns out the computer was causing all the intermitent problems. In between then this high class stereo show car that was the best in Canada at one of the shows is completely gutted $30,000 dollars in stereo gear was lost in one night. Now the real sucky thing was even tho the stereo was separately insured the insurance company found a loop hole and basically told Kev well sue us. His car is now gutted and to make matters worse when they gutted it they trashed the interior completely. Kev now has a gutted car and has since left Kenwood for another job where the guy completely screwed him over. I know Kev wouldn't mind me saying this but he barely had a pot to piss in and couldn't even afford to put a simple deck in his car. Kev comes down we get this car tuned up and find our gremlin( the computer) he puts down his 225 whp and both of us are excited we drove this car around Red Deer laying a big can of whup ass on everything that challenged us that night on the street. The thing pulled V8 hard I was so happy. That weekend it was going to the dragstrip two days later the car was hit by a woman running a red light. You guys will laugh at this the insurance company gives Kev $1500 for his car and he has to buy it back from them so we can get the motor out. Kev calls the yard where his car is and they tell him they can't find his car. Kev used to work at a Perf shop in West Edmonton Mall and later that day a couple kids are in asking about some pretty expensive Momo parts in the store. Kev starts questioning why they are asking and it turns out that his car got sold to the salvage yard they work at and they are just shopping what the parts are worth they also claim to have driven this car around the yard. When Kev tells me I am concerned that they may have overheated the motor and cracked the heads but luckiy they didn't and what a stroke of luck to find the car before the engine was sold. So Kev gets his busted up Red Lumina back. It is towed down my shop and Kev pulls the motor out of it and we customize it slightyl enjoy the following pictures. The motor sits in the corner of my shop for almost a year until Kev buys this new Lumina 5 spd. He then does all the work except for a few minor things putting this motor in his new car. Now it is done. A total enthusiast most people would have scrapped the car and walked away. So maybe you can understand why this whole project and all the BS mostly by Arron has got us so pissed off. Myself I would have burnt the thing and walked away along time ago but Kev loves the LQ1. This time with the dyno run we have a video seeing how that seems to be necessary to make it real.(which I think is total BS but we will play by the rules )

[Kevwood]

So I guess I can forget about writing my own autobiograph...

[Dr.Lightspeed]

Yea I got copyright on that material now Kev LOL

[SappySE107]

omg, its like reading jeff's posts on w-body.com in the TGP area. Novels... I didnt make it too far in, short attention span after years of online novel reading

Yes, shaun comes off as a dick and its getting old. I wouldn't worry about him, he can be pushy. Im not going to lock this unless it gets really childish. I just want to know if lightspeed posted on efi-street about 4 years ago claiming 40 hp from a chip. I know it was someone in canada, and they disappeared before I could ask any questions.

Im curious on the wet flow bench, do you use 2 dyes and a florescent light with your setup? That is the only one ive really read up on and would like to get my own setup going here someday. Someday after I have some freakin cash is what I really mean:P