13 * retard

[93vinx]

i am not getting how to do this, i have read the site and searched the posts but its not clicking. can somone just type up a procedure for me, which cam to do first, how far to rotate. my car is properly timed rite now.
thank you to any one can help. btw my car is a 92 but has 94 cam carrier so the gears are easier type, also i have a hold down tool for both cams madde and to hold one cam at a time.

[dohcfiend]

u can do it in any order if u hold 1 at a time for a 13* retard.

1 thing that got me from the online walkthrough was the rotations. the cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank.

just remember the cam flats on the front and rear banks are to be 180* opposed so if the flats are up on the front bank they should be down on the rear bank.

[93vinx]

so when i am all done the exhauust cams should be 13 * behind the intakes, or 7 degrees at the crank? i understand how to do it the website confuses me though

[SappySE107]

Its 13 crank degrees, so 6.5 cam degrees since the cams turn at half speed.

[93vinx]

well i tried the timing mod, no luck. the car idles fine but not power after 3 k, i think i may have advanced instead of retarted, i left intakes stock and locked the exhaus t then spun the crank once then 347 locked exhaust, i beleive i should have went 373 degrees, 13 past and that would set stock intake and the exhaust 13 behind.

[4spdz34]

wait u only went 347? the cams spins half the crank so you have to go 707 if u think that way. lets go simple though, get stock timing again do one bank at a time. hold down the exhaust and rotate the crank only 13 degrees forward. now lock the exhaust cam in place

[Gemmer]

Its 13 crank degrees, so 6.5 cam degrees since the cams turn at half speed.

Now Im confused

So when doing this mod, are we actually only retarding the exhaust 6.5 degrees by turning the crank 13, or are we turning the crank 26 degrees in order to retard the cam 13?

[4spdz34]

Its 13 crank degrees, so 6.5 cam degrees since the cams turn at half speed.

Now Im confused

So when doing this mod, are we actually only retarding the exhaust 6.5 degrees by turning the crank 13, or are we turning the crank 26 degrees in order to retard the cam 13?

u are retarding the cam 6.5 cam degrees or 13 crank degrees. u turn the crank 13 degrees.

6.5 cam degrees=13 crank degrees

[pontiacjeff]

Its 13 crank degrees, so 6.5 cam degrees since the cams turn at half speed.

Now Im confused So when doing this mod, are we actually retarding the exhaust 6.5 degrees by turning the crank 13, or are we turning the crank 26 degrees in order to retard the cam 13?

Dude, please don't take this wrong, but if you don't know the answer, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! Cam timing is for the experts. Again, sorry to sound harsh, but your troubles over 3000 are a direct result of you not knowing what you're doing. You are lucky if you don't burn a valve or worse.

You don't turn the crank 373 or 342 or anything. You must first set the timing back to stock as outlined in a factory service manual or Alldata technicians reference. IN a nutshell... you set the crank (lower pulley) timing mark to the top dead center pointer on the font cover. Remove the v.c's. Take the cam bolts loose. Tap the gears with tha rubber mallet to unseat the washer. Find the set of cams with the flats up andusing a proper holder to hold them flat, torque the cam bolts while holding hte cams gears with a sprocket tool. Then rotate the engine one full turn til the mark lines up again. Now repeat the above steps on the other set of cams.To retard the timing you MUST have a degree wheel properly installed and know how to use it. Here's why...MYTH BUSTER #549: The so called 13* mark is actually about 22deg. (unless I'm loking at something else... aren't people using the little cast-in nipple just after the pointer [it's actually the reference mark indicating a date code]) Just found this out last weekend while degreeing my cams. I retarded the intakes 10deg. and left the exh stock for a turbo application.

[pontiacjeff]

I don't know what all that "o$shy;" stuff is in my previous post... must be gremlins.

[SappySE107]

How wide is 1 degree on the crank pulley? That is how we came up with the mark being 13 degrees. We tried it before we knew how many degrees it was exactly but that is what we came up with. I am uploading the pictures that havent been reuploaded yet so I can show you where I set my own timing. For the TDC mark, do you line it up pointing to the mark or straight down from the tip?

[SappySE107]

http://www.60degreev6.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=DOHC&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=9&page=1

[pontiacjeff]

First, I degreed a '96 engine. It does not have the vertical "leg" on the pointer. Second, when hearing about the "other mark" I assumed everyone was refering to the tit surrounded by numbers (shift id). It is 20-22deg. The other marks you reference may be very close to the 10* and 13* you suggest. The only way to know for sure is to use a degree wheel. A complete master degree kit from Comp Cams cost me 125.00. I did not "degree" the cams as there is no way to reference the lifter for valve events (the cam lobes are in the way... DOH!)

I did however set the intakes to 10deg retarded in hopes of moving the powerband higher. Judging from the numbers found on this site (I hope they are right!) GM ground the cams 4 deg. retarded in 96 but kept the same profile. I'm sure they did this for emissions purposes (and to boost the bottom end with the new high flow intake!) Funny how the peak hp came in at, what, like 1000rpm higher? even more nuts knowing the cams were advanced 4deg! SO, I regained the 4deg and added 6 additionaldeg of retard. The "fiero guy" retarded his intake 8 and exhaust 18(!!!) to get the incredible numbers he did. Of course his headers and intake helped too!

Anyway, I think the 13 deg might be to much. Has anyone dynoed it yet??? Before and after?

[SappySE107]

Not that im aware of. I only know from driving the car and checking the computer variances. There is probably something better involving the intake side to lower the powerband but still retain more power overall. I know 6 degrees is barely noticable, and 10 degrees works as well with a slightly better idle quality.

[pontiacjeff]

GM ground the cams 4 deg. retarded in 96 ?

Sorry, that should be "GM ground the cams 4 deg. ADVANCED in 96. The rest of my previous post will make more sense now.

Maybe I'll play around a little after GPG. Doing the cam timing in the car sin't too bad, is it? (As long as you aren't changing the belt, right?!?)