Total Seal Rings, How much do they cost??????

[HayesPerformance]

Hi Everyone,

I was just wondering roughly how much the Total Seal Piston rings cost?

I heard there expensive, but I was wondering HOW expensive.

Thanks!!!

[SappySE107]

I think it was about 200-250 a set.

[Schurkey]

Their "gapless" rings--especially the gapless second ring--would NOT be my first choice.

How much gap does a properly-installed conventional ring have when the engine is fully warm and at heavy throttle?

[SappySE107]

Any reason you are against gapless on the second ring in particular? You will have more crankcase pressure so a good evap system is in order. I have ran these rings on 2 motors, a 3.1 and a 3.4 DOHC.

[Schurkey]

Any reason you are against gapless on the second ring in particular?

Sure. Leading engine builders (aftermarket and GM) along with Sealed Power themselves are recommending a greater ring gap for the second ring than the top ring.

This is in line with the true purpose of the second ring--it's as much (or more) of an oil control ring than a compression ring.

If the second ring gap is tighter than the top ring gap, you build pressure between the rings. That pressure pushes the top ring "up" and destroys the seal between the bottom of the ring, and the ring land it should seal against.

A gapless second ring makes for good results in static tests like leakdown and cranking compression. Makes for less power when the engine is actually RUNNING at heavy throttle, though.

Gapless top rings are more harmless, but a waste of money. I'll ask again: How much gap is there in a properly-installed top ring when your foot is heavy on the throttle?

[SappySE107]

Like anyone here has the equipment to measure that.

[series8217]

Like anyone here has the equipment to measure that.

Which is why we trust companies like GM, Sealed Power, who DO have the equipment to test it, and whose results show that we need the second ring to bleed off pressure...
Remember the oil control problems of the 90's vettes? I think the LT4 as well? Ring flutter at high RPM due to pressure buildup between the rings...

As for the gap in a properly installed top ring.. that can be calculated easily if you know the bore diameter, static ring gap, and roughly the temperature of the bore and/or ring. These are probably specs that can be looked up easily. I'll give a try when I'm back from vacation on Monday.

[SappySE107]

Nope, it hasn't been brought up regarding 60V6s that I know of so I wasn't aware of the vette issue. I know that the 3.6 pistons have an accumlator groove. Found this on the topic

http://www.beckracing.com/page05.htm

"Accumulator Groove is the groove between the 1st and 2nd compression ring. It does make the piston lighter, but the real purpose is more abstract. Pressure spikes that get trapped between the 1st and 2nd compression rings tend to unseat the top ring. This action encourages ring flutter and loss of piston ring seal. Past efforts to reduce ring unseating pressure have included increasing the second ring end gap. Now, with the addition of the accumulator groove, ring flutter can be controlled in all engines. The void created by this groove between the rings tends to average the normal pressure present, keeping the pressure low enough to prevent lifting the top ring while maintaining some preload on the 2nd (oil scraping) ring."

How will this fare with gapless rings? I plan to run the 3.6 pistons in a 3500 motor with some modification to the pistons to lower compression. Really wasn't planning on new rings but someone else might. Has there been anything done on this setup?

[bszopi]

Here is a picture of the 3.6L piston Ben was talking about...

[Schurkey]

Like anyone here has the equipment to measure that.

Actually, for the purposes of this forum, it's quite easy:

DAMN NEAR ZERO
And most of the gap (about 9/10 of the total gap) will be blocked by the bottom of the ring groove, so it still won't leak.

The amount of area that gasses can "blow through" is ASTONISHINGLY small when the engine is actually making power--because the ring will be hot and fully expanded.

For more, check the KB Silvolite web site:

http://kb-silvolite.com/feature.php?action=read&F_id=62

(This article is biased more toward oil use, but the concept--and the illustration of how little of the ring gap matters--is worth the read.

[SappySE107]

Oh, i thought you wanted to know for real, not play it up to accept a general idea of what it will be. No need to be so dramatic over this.

[HayesPerformance]

So I guess, that the Total seal Rings are a waste of money?

I suppose the stock GM rings on some Sealed Power Pistons is my best choice.

[SappySE107]

Maybe. What is the real difference between DAMN NEAR ZERO and 0 for building pressure between the rings? I haven't read anything about gapless being worse than gapped yet. What I have read was piston design, not rings.

[Schurkey]

The point is that you can buy gapless top rings, and have no gap. Or you can properly fit ordinary rings, and for all practical purposes, have so small a gap that it just doesn't matter--and at 1/2 the price. Yes, I believe that gapless TOP rings are a waste of money--but "perhaps" not an actual step backwards in performance.

Either way, you'll have a LARGER gap on the second ring, so that inter-ring pressure has somewhere to go rather than blowing the top ring off the ring land and destroying it's seal.

The worst possible combination would be to use a gapless SECOND ring. Great static leakdown tests, reduced horsepower. This is where gapless rings are worse than ordinary ones--but still a premium price

If I really cared about performance, I'd pass on the Sealed Power pistons and go directly to lightweight Forged pistons from someone like Ross or Weisco. Sealed Power is a good company; I've used a lot of their stuff over the years, but their products are geared toward the mainstream.

[Will'sFiero]

If you buy custom slugs, go with CP over Ross. CP's ring groove tolerances are MUCH tighter than Ross's.

As far as the rings go... it just depends on how much you want that extra 3 to 5 HP. You also need to think about what the gap on the conventional rings does after 50,000 miles of hard use (has anyone managed to keep a built engine together that long?), and what the inevitable blow by and dissolution in the oil of corrosive exhaust gases does for engine longevity.

The real gains come from better control of the rings, which comes from tightening up the side clearance... hence my recommendation for CP pistons for groove tolerances. Sealed Power has VERY good axial thickness tolerances on their rings... I only saw .0001 across a given ring and .0002 across a set.

Since Total Seal modifies other MFG's rings and does not, as a rule, make their own, they're handicapped by the QC level of the manufacturer from which they buy. However, they can lap rany set of rings for VERY tight thickness tolerances, but that's expensive.

Anyway, get your side clearance down to about .001, use gapless rings, get your bore surface finish right AND do a hard break-in and you'll see good gains from the ring package.