fixed one bad oil leak to find another. Help

[bjorn218]

My daughter has a '93 Grand Prix STP with the 3.4L DOHC. We fixed the oil leak from the oil distributor and OPD cap. Now she tells me the car in one day has no oil. I look under the car and it seems to almost be pouring from the passenger side of the car. The filter area looks a little wet, but not leaking from that area. Almost the whole frame area on that side of the car is dripping oil and around the drain pan looks pretty saturated. Seeing how she just came home at 1:00am, I cant see too much. Any suggestions on where to start looking?

[bjorn218]

We took the car to the carwash tonight and sprayed off underneath the car, set the front end up on jack stands and ran the car for about 15 minutes looking for anything leaking. There seems to be quite a bit getting oil on it on the firewall side of the engine. I could not tell if the head was leaking, but I really do not think so as some of the stuff getting oil on it was against the firewall. It is so much fun lying on a hot engine trying to look through a 2" space with hoses and wires in the way. I do have a question. What is this hose? The one I am asking about is the one centered in the photograph attached under the cam cover going to the left towards the coolant tank.

I traced it under the coolant tank and it makes a right running back along the firewall(comes out about where the frame meets the firewall area). I lose it along the firewall, but there is a hose the same size towards the middle of the engine that appears relatively dry on its top, but everything under it is wet with oil.

There is also a black plastic looking box under the rear exhaust manifold that has a metal strap around it that looks like it has oil on top of it.

There is no water getting into the oil, and no oil in the water. I also do not think the rear head is leaking because the back of the block appears dry.

Thank you for any help in trying to resolve this for me.

[pocket-rocket]

That hose goes to the heater core. It snakes along the frame rail and the snakes up the firewall to hook to the heater core.

As for the plastic box under the rear manifold, there are two. The knock sensor (which is round and has a single wire connected) and the crank position sensor (which has a heat shield over it and a two twisted wires connected to it). Since you said it has a strap over it I'm assuming you see the CPS.

If you gave a mirror, you may want to try taking the passenger side tire and splash guards off and sneak the mirror behind the alternator to see what you can see. It's possible you have a cam carrier gasket leak. My 91 has had this issue before, and sadly I have not found that gasket separate from a head gasket set.

Hope this helps, and btw, welcome to the forums

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[Schurkey]

There is also a black plastic looking box under the rear exhaust manifold that has a metal strap around it that looks like it has oil on top of it.

As for the plastic box under the rear manifold, there are two. The knock sensor (which is round and has a single wire connected) and the crank position sensor (which has a heat shield over it and a two twisted wires connected to it). Since you said it has a strap over it I'm assuming you see the CPS.

I'd have said the cold air intake ducting for the alternator. Larger, plastic, has a band around it. (actually, two bands.)

[pocket-rocket]

I'd have said the cold air intake ducting for the alternator. Larger, plastic, has a band around it. (actually, two bands.)

I totally forgot about that thing, lol. Good call.

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[bjorn218]

I'd have said the cold air intake ducting for the alternator. Larger, plastic, has a band around it. (actually, two bands.)

That is it. I read in another thread about someone having a cam carrier gasket fail. This was really bothering me last night so I went out and stuffed my hand down where I was seeing wet, or thinking I was seeing wet. Between pulling the boot for the center plug and running my hand in from the front (passenger side) of teh engine I was able to run my fingers along the lower part of the cam carrier where it meets the head, and along where the head meets the block. I only came up with old grime. Nothing remotely near the new oil I put into the car. I plan on pulling the front wheel and inside fender wall and have a look to see what I find. Im going to use my extending mirror I use for HVAC work at my job because its a 2"x3" mirror and not the quarter sized mechanic one.

The one thing that iz really puzzling my is that the wetness I am seeing doesn't really look like fresh oil, but is browner. In addition to a possible oil leak, I am thinking that the power steering pump and the pressure and return hoses might be leaking as well. I only am thinking this because there is power steering fluid on the top of the pump including on top of the cap. In addition, just how hard is it to change these hoses out? I am talking down at the steering knuckle.

When we had the car running at the car wash last night we did notice smoke coming up from the exhaust pipe area, but it was coming from lower than the rear exhaust manifold and closer to where the two pipes come together(collector?)

Also what are the two hoses that are tucked down close to but behind the front axle on the passenger side? I am just trying to cover all my bases as this was an old lady car that my daughter bought earlier this year. I am thinking that the car had its routine maintenance done, but was not driven enough to keep fluid moving through the hoses to keep them from drying out.

I want to get this thing not leaking as her college across town starts today and its going to be a major PITA sharing cars until this is fixed.

Once this is done, I have to replace the Y pipe with the two pre cats on my Montero Sport. $400 part with 4 $120 o2 sensors.

[pocket-rocket]

PS pressure hoses are common (and cheap). They aren't real hard but they aren't a joy either.

They clip to the front of the engine in front of the timing cover and then snake along the rack. You can drop the rear of the subframe to gain clearance, but don't drop it more than a couple inches because the steering slip joint will pop apart and those aren't very fun to get back together.

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[bjorn218]

I think I found the leak.

Taking the tire off was a no go as the tire store putt enough torque on the lug nuts that caused me to snap my lug wrench. Buttheads....

I got a fairly good amount of oil coming out between the cam carrier cover and cam carrier. It is happening where the round portion protrudes from the cover. I noticed the flat machined piece of the cam carrier thats about a 1/4" wide had the oil run down it. This is directly over where everything lower on the backside of the engine is getting oil all over it. there are no other visible leaks.

Can these gaskets be re used? This gasket was new. I am wondering if that bolt closest to the vacuum control center wasnt tightened enough, or too much. Can a gasket making compound be used on either side of the gasket to help make a positive seal?

[pocket-rocket]

Since it's a new seal you should be able to reuse it. I've never put anything other than a dab of silicone in the channel it lives in at various spots to help hold it in the valve cover while I installed it.

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[bjorn218]

We pulled the rear cam cover off tonight. Here is what we found. The seal appears good, no cuts or breaks in the seal. The cover as well as the cam carrier do not have any cracks or problems with the machined surfaces. The seal will not fit snugly in the channel. The keeper tab seems a bit long because when you set it into the hole it goes in, the seal will push out of the channel it is in. There are also many places where the seal looks more narrow than the channel, especially around some of the bends.

My buddy who is helping me with the repair had told me when he pulled the seals out of the box, they did not come out flat, but both seals were somewhat jumbled up together and he had to straighten them out and twist them into a usable shape. I was not there when this happened but at work. We suspect a bad seal and he called his neighbor who has been a mechanic for Coca Cola for the past twenty years and send him some pictures, he agreed. There is one portion of the seal where it looks slightly twisted and if you align it properly, it will pop out of the groove on either side of that twist.

I get what you said about using a little dab of silicon here and there to keep the seal in place since you have to flip the cover over to install it, but this seal will fall out and lose total shape if you tilt the cover vertical. To keep it in place, I would have to use silicon around the entire channel and pray it held once I flip it over. We got lucky that this is the only seal having problems. The front seal is not leaking at all.

This project is now exiting the stage of repairing some leaking to a battle of the wills.

Would the dealer still carry these seals if the new one I ordered turns out all misshapen as these were?

[pocket-rocket]

I'm not sure if they would. If they do you would have to wait on it to come in for sure. I've never had issues with the felpro gaskets so that's what I always get and most stores stock them, so no waiting. If this was a felpro set I would take it in and have them defect it out.

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[bjorn218]

Ok we finally got this fixed. What we had to end up using was a very small bead of Permatex ultra black between the gasket and cover then another small bead on the bottom of the gasket meeting the cam carrier. I was in doubt, but was told by two other mechanics shops that I trust that using the permatex would be ok as long as I used a thin bead. Three days so far and no oil leaks. I am still a bit worried so I hope that doesn't cause more. Give it some more time and I should be not as nervous about it.

Thanks for your help PR as well as whoever came up with the pic of the air intake for the alternator.