Question : cam timing/cam gear lock rings

[mythias]

now, i have not started this procedure yet, but familiarizing myself and prepareing for it...i've never done it.

i own a '93 3.4dohc. to my understanding, when setting the cam timing, it says to replace the lock ring and shim on the cam gear only if running torque is more than 44-66 ft. lbs.(chilton) just to seat the bolt and washer.
...shouldn't i just replace them anyway? can i re-use them?

i've made one phone call so far, but the gm dealership has them in a sprocket kit $57 each! and alls i need is the lock ring and shim. not the sprocket.
would there be an aftermarket lock ring and shim for this? what's the part #?
...and, what about the washer? i would assume i can get one easy.

[pocket-rocket]

You can reuse your old lock rings, no problem. I've lost track of how many belts I've done or been a part of, and we've never replaced the rings unless they were torn up for some reason.

[mythias]

thanx man! that saved me the headache of running around searching and spending for no reason at all...lol! sweet!
i stiil had to run around today and search for these tools, but i'm not having much luck. i made a cam hold down tool from a key stock and followed the instructions that were on this site.
i was wondering about using a harmonic balancer puller to pull the cam gears off? would that actually work? the cam carriers are not on yet. i read it somewhere on this site ,but couldn't find it again.and someone also said it would have to be when the engine is out of the car.???

[pocket-rocket]

You might be able to get them off with something like a 3 jaw style pulley puller if you can't track down the correct tool and the cam carriers are not on the engine yet. The tool you need only lets you get the front 2 and the rear intake cam gear off anyways, thanks to the tight clearance of the rear cam carrier to the strut tower. Most guys just time the rear cams first, rotate the engine once, then time the front to get around it without removing the rear exhaust cam lock ring. Good luck with the timing job. It's intimidating to do the first time around, especially without first hand guidance there to help. Let us know how it goes

[mythias]

the cam hold down tool that i made from key stock... to my understanding, they're used to keep the cams in place to back out the cam gear bolts? correct? i would assume i can use it to keep them in place when i torque down the the cam gear bolts after resetting the timing? would that hold?? (81 ft. lbs.) ?? i just want reassurance that it's ok, and wont strip or rip that bolt out when i start abcking it out or torqueing it down.
Also, i was having trouble torqueing the tool down to the prefered spec?(22 ft. lbs. roughly) i used my smaller torque wrench, and it only clicked at 120 in. lbs.? after that, it wouldn't click. i kept torqueing it down, and it started bending at a certain point. so, i jus backed it out, bant it back, and when i retorqued it again i just went 10 ft. lbs. +90 degrees or so. should that be suffice to keep the cams in place while i back the cam gear bolts out, and then torque them back in after the timining is reset?
AND, lol!... (not done asking questions yet!) As a cam timing tool, can i just use a small vice grips? haha! idk? lol! to my understanding, alls the tool does is keep the cam gears in place (marks lined up with eachother) as i torque the bolts down? everyone that i have bounced the procedere off of in the places that i called (besides the dealership, becuase they have the correct tools for the job!) and a couple freinds of mine, who also work on cars...all say i need someone to just hold them in the correct alignment as i torque the bolts down. lemmeno!
i'll be workin on finding this 3 jaw style pulley puller in the mean time today. u didn't say wether or not the harmonic balancer puller would work tho? i know rite where to get one of those!! lol!

[walterdude]

STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING!!! DO NOT use the cam hold down tool to loosen/tighten the cam gears.. They are NOT designed for that and could cause MUCH trouble... There is a tool to hold the cam gears for tighten/loosen.. They can be made fairly easily... The hold down tools are just to make sure the flats are lined up and should NOT be torqued, just good and tight. I've heard of the hold down tools bending, the cure is to double up on the keystock pieces,,, AND don't over tighten. I have heard of the threads pulling out..
I've got to go out for awhile,,,, later I'll find a pic of the cam gear holding tool and post it for you.
As a suggestion PM pocket-rocket and have him outline step by step EXACTLY how to time the engine. He IS very knowledgeable and can explain the process so that you can understand how and why it works...
I'll get back later,,, I just wanted to make sure you didn't do any damage...
Good luck,,,
Tom....

[mythias]

i haven't done aything yet! i'm jus gathering the correct tools, info and understanding FIRST! ...thanx tho tom! i'll read more. i have the info. but the info i made a print out from is from (sappy) Ben.
but i've been building and studying the info on this car from the ground up for several weeks! there is a bunch of info in this brain of mine all jumbled up!! lol!
jus trien to get it rite the first time. u-dig?
i actually have the list of tools that i need. it's just locating them for rent/borrowing and/or buying them/making them....and USING THEM CORRECTLY!! haha!
thanx walterdude! i'll pm pocket rocket or his procedure!
...mythias

[walterdude]

I DIG!!! Just you were sayin the keystock was bending and I saw the threads getting stripped out... Really not the biggest problem you could have,, worse case a drill and a heli-coil would fix you up... But that is more work than I want to do,,, if I don't have to!!
To be perfectly honest I haven't done this job yet... Although I've worked on much more complex valve trains than these.... I was a bike mechanic for many years and Ducatis were one of the bikes we specialized in... They use a cam and rockers to open the valves and another cam and rockers to close with VERY light valve springs for idling... Lots of fun setting all that up!! I know/understand what has to happen, just without doing it myself I wouldn't want to give advice.. That's why I suggested Jon (pocket-rocket)... He's done plenty, but more important he does the best job of explaining the process I've come across...
Well now I babble.... Here is a couple of pics of the cam gear holding tool... Also a couple of pics of my adjustable cam timing tool.... That's for custom cam timing.....
Good Luck,,,,,,
Tom....

[mythias]

nah! i was cautious and carefull when i tested the tool. doubleing the key stock up would seem better!
i'm a mere novice diesel technician/mechanic, don't know much about gasoline engine's, and how axactly it all worx ...mainly how the intermediate shaft plays apart in all this. i would assume to increase the speed from crank-2-cams? ...but i aspire to learn! can't see how differant they can really be? no belt on a diesel tractor-truck gear-train tho.
thanx for the pics! i've ordered an adjustable cam timing tool from autozone. i don't have the means at this moment 2 make/weld this makeshift tool.

so just so i got this correct...the cam timing tool is what is used to back-out and torque down the cam gear bolts? or do i actually need to make this cam sprocket holding tool?
if it is, that would make the job require 4 tools, not 3?

[mythias]

i don't think my pm worx???

[mythias]

does this tool kit have everything i need??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=260816132529

or this one try.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Kent-Moore-GM-3-4-V6-SPECIAL-SERVICE-TOOL-SET-/260816132529?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item3cb9da59b1

[mythias]

hey, what about this kentmoore tool kit? does that have what i need in it?

[bszopi]

Since that kit was designed for this exact process, and since it appears to be the complete kit (most times you find parts missing), then sure, if you want to spend that $.

First question, I guess, would be have you looked through our writeup on the procedure? http://60degreev6.com/content.php/30...re-Walkthrough

Although that kit is definitely nice to have, if you are short on $$, its definitely not required. Hope that helps...?

[mythias]

yeah, i've been going over this procedure for a couple weeks. It's up to the point now i'm at this point of actually doing it, and now aquireing the tools and/or making them. And, now i'm going over the procedure more thoroughly and making sure i have the steps down in my head and ready to go ahead with it, permitting i have all the correct tools need before i start! i don't wanna get it wrong and scru anything up!! ...and have to do it over again.
i'm guna try and find the kit on craigslist in my area tho.

[walterdude]

That Kentmoore kit looks like it has everything, IF you want to spend the $$. As Brad said, all the required tools can be made. As far as the Cam "Timing" Tool, or Cam Hold Down Tool, it is exactly the way it sounds. It is for timing the engine,,, that's ALL... You see, the 2 camshafts (in EACH cylinder bank) have a "Flat Spot" on each cam. The "Timing Tool" clamps across these flats and holds them in place so the camshafts can NOT move. The camshafts are now locked in the proper position. With the lock rings removed the engine can be turned to line up timing marks or better yet a degree wheel, without the camshafts moving. THIS is how the timing is set. To remove the cam gear bolts I STRONGLY advise using a tool to hold the gears or you will probably bend the cam hold down tool or strip out the threads that bolt the tool down.... If the tool gets bent it could throw off the timing... As the cam flats may no longer be lined up....
The adjustable tool allows you to set the timing to a custom/non stock configuration... That tool was part of a group buy and not really easy to get ahold of. Every now and again someone lists one in the Buy/Sell Section.... The automatic trans LQ1s seem to like the 6 and 6 setup,,, that is one cam advanced 6 degrees and the other retarded 6 degrees. Forget which is which tho.... The manuals like a different configuration....
As for the "Intermediate Shaft" it is just a pushrod camshaft with no lobes on it and timing chain. It is also used to drive the oil pump... From there on up is the timing belt going to the camshafts...
Well, think I covered everything.....
Good luck,,,,
Tom.....
PS: haven't heard from Jon, pocket-rocket in a few days... I wouldn't give up on contacting him tho. I still like the way he explains it all.....