Cold Starting Problem

[newpiper]

Good morning. I was told about this .org at the S-Series.org website. Here goes.
On a cold start (sitting overnight in the midwest winter) the engine starts to a high racing idle for about 3 seconds (2500 to 3000 RPM) then dies. Try again, same thing. After 3 or 4 or 5 tries it will start the same, but then will go to very low idle (the engine shakes and almost dies), then searches up and down and finally settle in to a very crummy idle with exhaust odor (not rotten egg, more like excess fuel.) All the plugs are firing (I checked with a Champion ignition wire field tester tester.) After it warms up it idles and runs fine.

If I blow hot air under the hood ahead of the left front tire for 10 or 15 minutes with a kerosene heater the starting improves (meaning no racing engine on startup) but it still has a little bit of a crummy idle for a while - not nearly as long.)

152,000 trouble-free (heh-heh!) miles on a ?94 Olds Cutlass Supreme convertible. Dealer replaced HO2S and PCM and wires and ?distributor cap and rotor? about 4 years ago (boy, did we have a discussion about that! Wonder why he didn?t just replace the points and condenser while he was at it!) and ?cleaned up? the EGR, the IAC passage and throttle body. Dealer replaced alternator 4 years ago (at 90,000 miles). I've replaced the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve, Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor, cleaned the EGR, replaced all the plugs (the old ones looked OK), new fuel pump about 1 year ago, new fuel filter about 2 years ago, wires, HO2S again 2 years ago, new battery (after this started, and the old one was not bad just marginal) and I'm about to replace the Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor but it's really buried. Any ideas? The whole thing seems temperature (or moisture?) related somehow. It started in January 2004. Many thanks in advance for any help.

[montessgtp]

Dealer replaced HO2S and PCM and wires and ?distributor cap and rotor?

Um...you dont have a distributor cap or rotor and if do you take some pics im dieing to see this.

Also check your intake gaskets...spray some carb cleaner in between the lower n the head..see if the idles changes...Read the forums this is a known problem, which is usally fixed w/intake gaskets or replacement of a vacuum hose. [/quote][/code]

[ryan.hess]

Also spray some carb cleaner around the EGR base... I had a rather large leak on mine, and it had new gaskets too!

[newpiper]

Cold Starting

Ryan Hess, funny you should mention intake gaskets. I did the repair on the "infamous o-ring" two years ago or so using the "lift and pack with sealant" procedure. New upper plenum gasket and lower intake gasket. Today when I was putzing around with it the engine back-burped on start and I noticed some fog coming from under the plastic fuel rail cover. Look but no find. I'll try some cleaner on the next cold start and see if that improves things. (Hard to get at all of it, but it is worth a try.) Win or lose, it looks like I'll have to trace every bloody vacuum line just to be sure.
Thanks for the tip.

BTW, the wife picked up the car after the "cap and rotor" replacement. When I went back to the "5-Star Dealer" (because they also sell Jeeps) and asked for the replaced parts for old times sake, I got no parts but did get some cash back-in-the-hand. All of it "...a terrible misunderstanding..." caused by a "...standardized computer-generated entry for ignition system checkups on the S.O...." So, from this we might deduce that, for this paricular shop, standardized computer generated entries will have you up to $150 before the tail lights hit the bay?

[ryan.hess]

Re: Cold Starting

New upper plenum gasket and lower intake gasket. Today when I was putzing around with it the engine back-burped on start and I noticed some fog coming from under the plastic fuel rail cover.

That sounds very suspicious... When I do a compression check, sometimes I get that fuel "fog" coming out of the spark plug hole... When you replaced the lower gasket, did you replace the injector o-rings as well? You should do that anytime the injectors are removed (from the manifold that is), otherwise you'll have a leak.

[newpiper]

Cold Starting

Ryan, as a matter of fact, no I did not replace the injector O-rings. But they did go back in with a coating Dow-Corning #200 fluid.

Today's adventure. Sprayed carb cleaner on the EGR gaskets (2) and the lower intake to head gasket as far as I could reach by taking off the injector rail (plastic) cover. Voila'! Started correctly. Tomorrow morning it will be time to do this one component at a time until localized.

Thanks again for the tips.

[ryan.hess]

Re: Cold Starting

Ryan, as a matter of fact, no I did not replace the injector O-rings. But they did go back in with a coating Dow-Corning #200 fluid.

Today's adventure. Sprayed carb cleaner on the EGR gaskets (2) and the lower intake to head gasket as far as I could reach by taking off the injector rail (plastic) cover. Voila'! Started correctly. Tomorrow morning it will be time to do this one component at a time until localized.

Thanks again for the tips.

So did the idle change, or did you spray with the engine off? When the engine's running, you can use the carb cleaner to check for leaks. If the idle changes when spraying a particular part, there's a leak there... But I think you're on the right track!

*edit: Just replace all the gaskets and injector o-rings... Cost you $40 and a spare day... Don't forget the coolant o-ring and the (stupid) TB coolant hose, they are known to leak.

[newpiper]

Cold Starting

Ryan, I did the carb cleaner trick first with the engine off (every injector hole, all of the intake I could get to with the rail cover off.) It started correctly. Then wait for a cold engine (overnight.) Then the front injector holes. No luck. Then the rear injector holes and no luck. Then the front lower intake seam & no luck. Then the rear lower intake seam (s much as I could get) and that was it. Then a cold start without carb cleaner and spray carb cleaner on the area with the engine going nuts and got confirmation. Somewhere in the area of the right rear and/or rear center intake port.
The whole thing is in pieces on the garage floor right now. When I got the lower intake manifold off, there was a suspicious looking clean spot above the right rear intake port on both the head and the manifold. All the rest had gasket marks all the way around on both the head and manifold. And the corresponding injector port was clean (I mean CLEAN) while all the rest had some goo of one kind or another. One or the other (or both?)Putting in new lower intake gasket, plenum gasket, injector o-rings top and bottom, coolant ring seal, ECT sensor (why not?), heater pipe nut and throttle body coolant hose (with worm-drive clamps this time.) While I'm at it there will be a fresh layer of JB weld to seal off the infamous o-ring.

Thanks for the help. I'll post the outcome.

[Juglenaut]

While I'm at it there will be a fresh layer of JB weld to seal off the infamous o-ring.

I sure hpe you don't mean the oil plug, or even the coolant o-ring Jb weld will make it a solid seal and will almost never be able the get the oil-plug off. I am not sure what it will do to the coolant o-ring.

Use raised plane non-damaging worm drive hose clamps.

[newpiper]

Cold Starting

Final Answer: Replaced lower intake manifold gasket, injector o-rings. One week later - no problems. Had a suspicious carbon track at the top of the right rear port on the intake gasket at the "corners of the hump". Might have been the place. In any event, engine starts and runs great.