camshaft, timing, and timing belt help

[95z34]

Ok I've had my monte carlo for a few months and haven't had to do any maintenance work to it but I got one of these really bad rattling sounds coming from where all the belts are. I finally found out it was an idler pulley where the timing belt goes. Seems the bearings or something went out. Well the problem is after I marked everything and took the belt and pulley off the camshafts went slingshot in every direction and when I try to turn them to line my marks back up they spring back to the place they are currently at. Why is this happening? I have changed a timing belt on a Honda before and the camshaft didn't do that so excuse for if I sound dumb but this just seems strange to me. I hope its something simple and easy that I'm missing. Oh yeah, and what the best thing to do to get the timing lined back up. I marked the top 4 cam gears but I didn't mark the bottom (like intermediate, half cam gear) one and its moved and I'm not sure in what position it goes. Thanks for the help. Jeremy

[pocket-rocket]

http://www.60degreev6.com/index.php?p=pages&pid=3

http://www.60degreev6.com/index.php?p=pages&pid=62

http://www.60degreev6.com/index.php?p=pages&pid=9

[ryan.hess]

Yeah, the springs will fight against you... This is normal, and it's pretty easy to set one bank up, lock it in place with some vicegrips, and work from there... Mine didn't give me too much trouble though.

[95z34]

lets go over some things

Ok, I don't really want to use vice grips cause that usually screws something up. I rarely start a job with that tool that ends in a professional manner. Ok with that said, I think I can remove the upper plenum and valve covers and get everything back together. Its just the timing part i'm confused about. So with the mark on the harmonic balancer lined up with the mark on the timing chain cover plate, the crank is at TDC? and I should line all 4 cams with the lobes down? What do the yellow marks on the cam gears mean? The part where the instructions say to line all cam lobes (flats?) down and plus why he even pulls the gears off is confusing? Why do you have to pull the gear off to position the cam in the right place. Also he mentions aligning the exhaust to 13 degrees retarded. I would like to try this since its basically a free modification to gain more power. So which way is retarded, clockwise or counter? And what would 13 degrees be, one tooth over? And the link to that first pic of the "cam hold down tool", what in the world is that and where would it go.....maybe i will know once the valve covers are off. Thanks for any input. Sorry if I don't know the correct terminology but I'm not a seasoned mechanic. Thanks again. Jeremy

[pocket-rocket]

The balancer will have a slot taken out of it, like the old time Chevy engines, but instead of lining it up to a pointer with timing marks on it, you will line it up with an arrow on the timing chain cover. If my car was torn down, or Ben had a pic of it up, I would post it, but I don't. On the 95 engine, there should (I am not 100% positive on this since both of my engines are 91/3 engines) be a casting line going down, and an arrow coming off of it. This arrow is the one you line the slot up on the balancer for #1 TDC. As for question number two, you set all flats up. It may sound confusing now, but once you get into it, and start on it, it will become much clearer. Question number 3, your car does not require the gears to come off. I should have clarified that earlier, I am sorry for that mistake. My cars have lock rings in the gears themselves which I have to pull the gears to remove so the gears "freewheel". Yours, all you do is loosen the bolts, take a peice of wood and place them on the back side of the gears, and hit the wood to break them loose. Reason being, your gearset has tapered washer like deals that go on the inside of the came gears between the gears themselves, and the bolt. When you tighten them down, they act like the lock rings like in my car, that is why all you have to do is loosen your bolts vs me removing my whole gears. One tooth over is 12* on the 91/3 gears, and I'm pretty sure the 94/5 gears have the same number of teeth. Retarded on the cam gears would be turning the balancer (so read crank here) till the slot in the balancer is lined up with the casting line I talked about earlier. That is the 13* mark. Yes, once you take the valve covers off, you will know where the cam hold down tool will go, if you can't tell, just turn the cams over, and you will see the flats. I do have to mention, your idle note will suffer from the cam timing, you will get a slight lope at idle.

[pocket-rocket]

BTW, you will have to make custom hold down tools that will hold one cam down at a time instead of holding both down, if you want to do the 13* cam timing.

[SappySE107]

"One tooth over is 12* on the 91/3 gears, and I'm pretty sure the 94/5 gears have the same number of teeth."

Sorta, but 1 tooth = 24 crank degrees.

[pocket-rocket]

Very true, that fact slipped my mind. Thanks for reminding me, lol.

[95z34]

thats quite a difference.....so if i want to do any modifying i need to do it on the crank or intermediate sprocket and not the cam sprockets.....true?

[SappySE107]

You dont really base anything on the gear teeth itself....its not feasible. You measure with the timing mark on the crank pulley dampener vs the timing mark on the timing chain cover.

[95z34]

Ok, I got it back together and I have two major problems. I followed the instructions on the timing belt walk through and the only thing I did different was I couldn't get the belt on and then start the bolts to the idler pulleys. They tried to crossthread so I screwed them completely in and run the belt around everything and finished off putting it on at the intake cam on the front head. It was pretty hard. This leads me to my first problem. When I pulled the pin on the tensioning device, the belt is still lose and flappy around the top idler pulley where the belt has to come up to the intake cams. When I cranked the car up and idle you can see the belt jittering right there. It doesn't jump off anything but it doesn't look like something that would last 60k miles. This is the longest span the belt makes but it just seems like it didn't tighten up right. It seems like it only tightened up where the tensioning pulley is and the rest of the belt is just semi-tight. My second problem is the car idles fine and I've only reved it to 2.5k cause I'm scared I did something wrong, and it revs to that point fine and it doesn't have any hint of stalling or anything but now there is a definite ticking sound coming under only the front valve cover. Like I said i'm afraid to test drive or rev the car up but it runs fine at idle and reving up, but this ticking sound like the valves or something in the front head is VERY audible along with a flapping like sound near the gears (relates to first problem). I would definitely appreciate some help, since I've done tore everything apart and put it back together. I would suck really bad if I had to turn around and pay somebody after all this work. Thanks for the help. Jeremy

[SappySE107]

If the belt is loose, make sure the tensioner is seated into the tensioner pulley. Otherwise, if you put the belt on with the cam gears locked down, you will never get the belt tensioned between the banks since the teeth will not slip or give at all. This is bad, as it means your belt is loose for half the belt or so, and very tight for the rest.

Since it was trying to crossthread, and you screwed them completely in...they may be fucked. Ive never ran across that issue with the bolts but you are going to need to pull the belt off and try it again.

[95z34]

< curses violently to himself

[95z34]

Ok well, about the valves ticking, to make sure that doesn't happen again, why do you think they are doing that. And also, this time I think I'm going to have the guts to change the stock timing since it doesn't appear like its going to hurt anything since its all competely out of whack anyway. So, is there anyway to check your work and make sure you did everything completely right before putting the top half of the engine back on. Could I take a pic of everything and let you visually inspect it. I'm sorry but taking this thing apart again is a REAL pain in the ass. I already dread this second time but I don't want to make it three.

[SappySE107]

you are probably hearing the lifters ticking. They probably just bled down and need to be ran for a while to get the pressure inside again.

How are you going to change the timing then compared to stock? The only way to know for sure is to verify the cam is flat compared to the crank TDC mark on the dampener. What you will want to do is get a piece of aluminum block and sand it or whatever to these dimensions.

1.276" wide
0.904" tall
0.741" deep

You can then sit that block onto the cam flat and it should be flush with the top of the cam carrier.

That is the way I do it now and its very accurate on the cam side of things. I just use adjustable pliers to move the cam a tad in the direction it needs to go till its flush.