Ben shouldn't do any performance parts for the 60V6

[Galen]

Actually Aaron, I would venture to say there probably is quite a bit of horsepower left in the heads. I don't think I would send mine to Ben if I were paying money( that is what professionals are for), but the potential has to be there. Of course, headers and a good exhaust would definitely have to come first, and a quality engine management system shortly there after.

Galen

[SappySE107]

Galen, I am a professional when it comes to DOHC head porting, and I don't plan to stop now with my research.

Don't compare my head work to desktop dyno cams, thats for ricers.

[Anonymous]

Galen, I am a professional when it comes to DOHC head porting, and I don't plan to stop now with my research.

Don't compare my head work to desktop dyno cams, thats for ricers.

But its the best we have right now. And you aren't doing anymore than that-All you have is seat of the pants.

I'd really like to see a flow chart of your heads. I believe you and I know you know your stuff, but still, he is right, it isn't worth the risk yet IMO.

[Galen]

?Don't open up the head port unless you don't want low end.?
Quoted from Sappy 17 Nov at 1516
?You can reshape the ports though for better low end, or top end, and its a very noticable change in performance?
Quoted from our boy Sappy 21 Nov 2050
Sappy, unless you had an epiphany within less than a week, you can?t even stay consistent in your knowledge of port flow?let alone the ability to make one work.
?I have tested 4 sets now, and going on 5 once I get the CNC machined heads back from Ed.?
OOPS!!! Now I see?you have ported all of 8 heads?I stand corrected. If I remember right, you even have a flowbench?lets see?time for another quote:
?chip sales got me a flowbench but i haven't really made use of the bench yet?
So, you have a ?flowbench? and port heads?but just don?t like to use them in conjunction. At this point it sounds more like you are just a hack with a die grinder and a shopvac. I really hope the mindless masses here use more discretion when choosing a physician than some of them obviously do choosing a ?professional porter?!!! Call it experimentation or anything else, but the term ?professional? is definitely not the correct word. Please try to be honest when you describe yourself in the future.

Galen

[SappySE107]

Maybe if you had experience doing this you could question my skills, or perhaps if you have even seen my work or ran my heads your opinion would matter. I have no changed my story, recommendations, or knowledge in the past week or even the past year. You have taken context out, which would explain the use of "port". The first quote is referring to the port opening, not the area inside the port around the fins, the fin itself, and the bowl shape and transition itself.

If you knew anything about head work, you would know that head flow numbers are used mostly for sales quotes and marketing. I want to use the bench in the future to test out more radical experimentation, involving adding metal. It doesn't take a flowbench to test out heads and notice the results in both the computer and by feel. You aren't talking to a kid, you are talking to a hardcore 60V6 enthusiast who not only has done the book reading and question asking, but also the test and tune on these motors. Whatever your problem is with me and how I do my work...it means nothing in the real world, which is how I run my business and do my work. You will be hard pressed to find anyone that is taking the time to learn this motor as well I as have and continue to do.

And calling everyone here mindless masses certainly isn't going to gain their respect. This board is unlike most of the boards out there, and it sounds to me like you should be considering those other boards more than this one.

If I am not considered a professional, why would my work be used by a large company to demo their CNC machine. I doubt they would let a "hack" do the port work to be copied by their machine to show its capabilities. My reputation when it comes to the 60V6 motors doesn't come from being a wannabe hack job poser.

Oh, and since I am posting like Jeff M (page long post). You act like I haven't ported a head before the DOHC heads, or that I didnt have any practice heads that I ported before ever running any sets on my motor or other motors. I was pointing out that I have tried 4 solid, well through out, fundamentally different sets of heads to test for real world changes.

Side note. I have seen 'professional' head porting before, and was not impressed. twice the price of what I charge and a lot less work, and a less consistant between ports. Maybe you would like to explain your qualifications for judging me without seeing my work, or even talking to me about what I might know.

[SappySE107]

Aaron. Tell me what powerband this 60 hp gain hurts on desktop dyno. Why would 99% of us want to have iron duke in a W body performance off the line, massive torque loss below 4000, and have to spin to 8k to make up for those losses with the cam specs you think are good? I know a bit more about the cam timing than I am sharing....and I will leave it at that. You can trust me, or not...and you can do whatever you feel is best for your project. You cannot tell me you need flowbench numbers to decide on which head work to get because anyone that knows anything about head porting can tell you, flow numbers don't mean shit in the real world short of boost. Last I checked I was doing NA testing. I will do flowbench testing later on just to quantify results vs flow specs, but I don't need the flow numbers to tell you what helps, what hurts, and what is overkill without better intake manifolds and probably headers.

[Galen]

If you knew anything about head work, you would know that head flow numbers are used mostly for sales quotes and marketing. I want to use the bench in the future to test out more radical experimentation, involving adding metal. It doesn't take a flowbench to test out heads and notice the results in both the computer and by feel.

Sappy...all I can say is WOW! My IQ actually went down while reading your post. The above quotation is by far the least intelligent quote I have ever read in regards to porting. A "professional" not using a flowbench (especially when one is available) is likened to a pilot choosing to fly a plane without any instruments or radar at night...not the professional thing to do. Next thing you will tell us is you just lick your finger and stick it in the port instead of using a velocity probe to find dead spots in flow. I really don't think you would know fluid dynamics if someone shoved a water hose up your ass and turned the water on!

As far as my qualifications...I am simply a hack with a die grinder and a shopvac. While I have ported far more than 8 heads and can definitely extract power from them, I am smart enough to know that my experience and my understanding of fluid dynamics are far from that expected of a professional. I also do not have a flowbench sitting in my shop...which would be an invaluable tool.

I really hope that when you "tune" your chips, you choose to use the proper tools...like WB O2 sensor, EGT probes in all exhaust ports and maybe a breakout box to read all sensors. Hell, a dyno would also kinda come in handy?lol!

Oh well...time to do something productive.

Galen

[SappySE107]

Why so hostile!?

So if your IQ dropped...maybe you can tell me why a flowbench is so necessary when doing head work. Then I can ask all the shops I have been to why they call themselves professionals when they don't even do flow testing. Perhaps the quality of flow means a whole lots more than raw numbers for NA operation. Let me know when you find a shop that knows the DOHC heads so well that they have flowbenched multiple heads and came up with the set that makes the most power in the powerband the end user wants. There is a lot flowbenches don't do, and its those factors that I am more interested in.

Oh yeah, and im done talking about my qualifications to you in this thread. You have hijacked this thread, and insulted myself numerous times, and everyone else once. You have a problem with my work, you can PM me.

[bszopi]

Just because this was brought to my attention...

I don't ever read the DOHC section because I don't own a DOHC. Sometimes I wish some DOHC owners (Aaron) would do the same for the Pushrod area. Anyway... Galen, it seems you are pretty junior to this site by the looks of your post count. But that doesn't mean you are necessarily new to the 660 or engines in general. BUT, you are starting to preach about someone else's qualifications without bringing up your own quals. I have a decent knowledge of fluid dynamics, but that doesn't mean I know anything about head porting. Ben may not know didily about fluid dynamics, but he does know about head porting. I can attest to that.

So I'm now acting as the neutral moderator in the discussion. I will agree with Ben that several of your comments are not only demeaning to him, but to other members as well. But, I'm not giving Ben the ability to act as a dictator and screw with you because he doesn't agree with your posts. With that said, please enlighten us on your knowledge and basis of your comments. If you have any issues with anything that you would rather not discuss publicly, or better yet, issues that I would rather not see publicly, PM or email me.

And finally, sorry for the thread hijacking...

[Anonymous]

Aaron. Tell me what powerband this 60 hp gain hurts on desktop dyno. Why would 99% of us want to have iron duke in a W body performance off the line, massive torque loss below 4000, and have to spin to 8k to make up for those losses with the cam specs you think are good? I know a bit more about the cam timing than I am sharing....and I will leave it at that. You can trust me, or not...and you can do whatever you feel is best for your project. You cannot tell me you need flowbench numbers to decide on which head work to get because anyone that knows anything about head porting can tell you, flow numbers don't mean shit in the real world short of boost. Last I checked I was doing NA testing. I will do flowbench testing later on just to quantify results vs flow specs, but I don't need the flow numbers to tell you what helps, what hurts, and what is overkill without better intake manifolds and probably headers.

Using desktop dyno, my new motor, with W41 cams, my ITB intake, and newer better headers, pretty much gave me these results. From 1,000rpm to 3,500rpm, my torque levels were equal with that of a stock 92 3.4L. Then my motor flatlined. Literally. The torque just ran flat, as did the hp. However this is where the stock motor took off, and pulled hard up to a max hp of 208.1 at 5600rpm. Mine just stayed flat until 4500, where it start to rise a little. At 5,000, it started peaking, and at 5500 it broke loose. From 5000-5500, it just climbed almost vertically, and kept climbing up to 6000, where the curve flatened out a bit more, but power did not drop off until right after 8100. We ran the DD to 8200. Max power was 436 at 7800rpm. So yes, not desireable for very many poeple. But it is exactly what I wanted. But maybe with even better cam specs, I can get more.

I want to trust you, but I want you to get me flow numbers. I am not as distrusting toward syou as Galen, but flow numbers would shut me up. ANyone can port a head with a dremel and say it looks ebtter and makes the car faster. Most porting will. But how much is what I want to know.

[GPXSS]

Higher flow numbers do not necessarily mean more HP.. dont believe everything you watch on HOTROD TV.

[gpse3400]

You think?

[Galen]

Well, nice to see this was moved...I would have chosen a better title, like "Galen waves BS flag at Ben"...but that is OK, this will work.

I guess I have been in the military too long, because when I see someone spewing out BS, the old crusty NCO in me comes out and I have to say something. I don't know Ben's work...and probably never will. Hell, he can probably actually get decent airflow increase over a stock head. I do know what he says on this board is not consistant with the knowledge that should be expected from a professional in the industry. If you read what I said, it was all concerning his use of the term ?professional. In my life, I find you can truly hold on to few thing, but your integrity is one of them. I will always fight for what I find honest and fair.

As far as the fluid dynamics, air is a fluid and such behaves as a fluid. If you do not have a basic understanding of the physics involved with airflow, how can one expect to improve said airflow. This is where a flowbench becomes an invaluable tool. Not only are flow numbers important at different valve lifts, but it is also necessary to use a velocity probe to find the dead areas in the flow. Without doing this, one is blindly grinding metal according to their paradigm, whether it is right or wrong. To say that it is only for showing off clearly shows a complete lack of knowledge on how to use the tool.

Was I insulting to Ben...yea, probably so. Hell, I probably even threw a few insults at others also...lol.

Should Ben be on here as a moderator hocking his goods without being able to reasonably back up his claims...probably not. That is an integrity issue that is definitely questionable. Should this be in the open and in public...damned skippy it should. If he can't defend his claims, then maybe he should not quit his day job. There are a lot of young people on here who are inexperienced who think of him as a role model...maybe they should at least be able to see more than one side to what he does or does not know.

Oh yea, my qualifications...I already listed them, but here goes again. I am simply a redneck with a die grinder and a shopvac. I know how to improve airflow in a head and have ported everything from D-port and round port Pontiac heads to 2.3 SOHC heads to the motor on my lawnmower. I have been around this industry for a long time, and I know a professional shop when I see one. At the risk of insulting him again...Ben ain't it.

Oh well, it is late and tomorrow starts again all too soon.

Galen

Oh yea?except in VERY rare cases?an increase in airflow = an increase in horsepower!

[SappySE107]

Whats disturbing is your think air is a fluid. What about the atomization of fuel. Yes, I would like to get my flowbench going so I can test for these dead areas, as well as test my velocity porting ideas. I don't need you telling me though that my work sucks and its not worth what anyone would pay me to do the work. Its not like im charging 1600 for a set of heads, since I am not flowmatching heads and all I don't charge for that. I also have never said that you cannot do better than my work....but you will be hard pressed to find better, especially better for the price.

So why exactly don't I know shit about fluid dynamics, pulse reversion, cam timing, piston velocity? Oh yeah...cause you said so without anything to back up what is clearly your assumptions. I have already cleared up your quotes. Opening up the port face hurts the low end. Hell, its already larger than the lower intake feeding the heads! Did you know that? Hell, wtf do you know about these heads that would be of value to anyone? Thats what matters to the 3.4 DOHC owners. Ill say it again, I have done testing already and will continue to do so, to improve my skills.

Am I a professional? Well I am paid for my work, and I have ported heads for other people. Considering my reputation in this particular line of engines, and my competition...or lack of competition, why don't you do something positive and insightful instead of bashing me without even knowing my qualifications.

And yes, the flowbench is a tool for porting heads but is not necessary to get excellent results. Don't worry, I am sure I can find a way to do enough work to charge 2,000 for a set of heads. Just let me know when there is someone that wants to pay me for that kind of work.

BTW, I own this site. We are run on donations, not sponsors. I am working to make the site self sufficient...and I am promoting my business through it as well. If you don't like that, leave.

[GPXSS]

Oh yea?except in VERY rare cases?an increase in airflow = an increase in horsepower!

There is no way you can replicate all that goes on in an engine with a flowbench. Yes they are nice to have so that you can show "flow improvement", but it does not automatically mean "I hogged the shit out of the heads and got a 200cfm increase, man these things are gonna make some power!!1!1one".

You have no idea at what rpm that flow increase is going to help, or where it is going to hurt. You also cannot factor in hurting/helping swirl or tumble unless you have the proper equipment to measure it.

I do not see a flowbench as being detrimental to the working and selling of performance heads. I would much rather prefer shown performace increases on a dyno or by someone who has tested so many different configurations and is very familiar with said engine.