3500 Swap Finally Underway, a few questions

[jmgtp]

^^tried the LX9 knock sensor wired as you suggest above, reset the ecm and still got the code. I ran a new wire from pin A11 (the KS pin on the ecm) went right to the KS (the 3.4 one) and still got the code. When I get everything straightened out I am still interested in trying this, would be nice to use the LX9 KS.

Is code 43 only triggered by a fault in the knock sensor circuit or can an absurd amount of detonation cause it? I ask because I noticed in something like 5-10 second of run time at idle the TunerPro racked up over 150 knock events! So perhaps the knock sensor is working correctly and code 43 is being triggered by this insane amount of knock?

I got the axles/suspension together and for the first time moved the car under its own power with the new engine - a small victory. It is running stinking rich and I think that may be most of my problem. With the ignition on/engine off I put the gas pedal to WOT, in TunerPro I could see TPS at 100% and injector bandwidth to 0.0 - as expected this is meant to clear a flooded engine. So I cranked it and the damn thing fired up and revved to hell, so there is definitely excess fuel. Whats weird is that at wot and revving, it sounded perfect, steady, no missing, etc.

I attached a clip from TunerPro, its not in excel so youll have to load it into TP and play it. It's only a few seconds of idle if anyone can make anything of it and tell me whats going on. Of note, the o2 sensor is NOT hooked up at this time. I'm working on the assumption that this isn't impacting how it runs because the engine is running in open loop. This is running the factory 3.4 dohc 5sp bin. I'm also using the 3.4 dohc injectors. I didn't think of it, but I should check fuel pressure, the regulator isn't adjustable and it isn't leaking fuel into the vac line so I assumed it is good.

idle small revs.zip
edit, i just looked at this in tunerpro and i dont think it will tell you much, its only a few seconds and it looks like it freaks out for the first few.

[Jonpro03]

Do you still get knock events with no sensor hooked up?

[robertisaar]

code43 can be triggered in a couple of conditions, usually due to the knock sensor voltage being out of range(too much or too little resistance). now if there's so much detontation that the sensor never gets into a normal range, that can do it.

ideally, there should be ~3900 ohms going through the knock sensor, that's a no knock signal. going above or below it signals knock, since the KS is somewhat alternating current based since it's a specialized microphone and uses the MEMCAL as a highpass and lowpass filter to remove frequencies other than those that are determined to be true knock(based on bore size and IIRC, valvetrain as well)

150 knocks from idle alone is bad... and IIRC, the ECM won't dial up KR when at idle, but it will track the knocks.

EDIT: it IS possible to use a newer(plugin style) knock filter on the older PCMs, but you would need to remove the existing filter from the MEMCAL, remove the little PCB from the inside of the filter and solder i think either 4 or 6 points to the correct area on the MEMCAL. i need to find my diagram for this though...

[bszopi]

From another site:

CODE 43

Trouble Code 43 indicates that there may be a malfunction in the Electronic Spark Control (ESC) circuit.

ESC is used to sense spark knock (pinging) and retard the timing to eliminate it. A knock sensor (located at the rear of the engine block) sends signals to an ESC module which then signals the ECM that knocking is being detected. The ECM will retard the timing by as much as 20 degrees in 1 degree increments. A loss of knock sensor signal or loss of ground at the ESC module will cause the signal at the ECM to remain high. The ECM will act as if no knock is present, and may possibly result in engine damage, if there is detonation.

Loss of the ESC signal to the ECM will cause the ECM to constantly retard the timing to its maximum. This results in sluggish performance and a Code 43.

The conditions for setting this code are:

Engine is running
ESC input signal has been low more than 2.23 seconds


Typical causes for this code include:

1) Open or shorted knock sensor
2) Loose knock sensor
3) Excessive mechanical noise within engine
4) Improper or incorrectly installed PROM or CALPACK in the ECM or defective ECM
5) Intermittent open in the EST line to the ignition module

That last item ont he list might be something to look into.

[robertisaar]

http://i.imgur.com/qNkSj.png

[bszopi]

To expand on robert's image link, do you have the EST wire connected? Just wondering, since it's a white wire, and during your search for the tach wire, you mentioned having 2 white wires...

[jmgtp]

I'm at work so it didn't load the picture but by what you guys are saying I'm assuming it is the wiring for the ICM and specifically the EST, which I want to say is the ecm input wire that allows for ecm control of spark timing?

I did have trouble finding the tach wire and did so by process of elimination.
Does the EST wire on the ICM run from one of the ICM harnesses directly to a pin on the ecm? If it does then I can just check it with an ohm meter to see if I have continuity from the ecm pinout to the pin on the ICM harness and also be sure that I have no shorts to ground. I did so much rewiring on the ICM that it is very possible that was missed or poorly connected, the ICM had to move to the other side of the engine so that was a lot of rewiring. I am hoping that is hte problem since it is an easy fix. I scanned/printed a copy of the IMC pins/ecm from my service manual and it is sitting on my windshield, I should be able to determine the status of the est wire fairly quickly. Will report back - won't get to it until this evenining though.

And to answer one of the other questions above, I don't know if it registers knock counts even with the knock sensor disconnected. I can try it though.
Also, can someone remind me how to dump a tunerpro datalog into an excel format? I can seem only to remember how to save the scans that you can replay through TP.

thanks for the help guys!

[robertisaar]

IMO, the TP XDL files are much more useful than a CSV anyway.

[jmgtp]

I checked the EST wire from the ICM harness to the ECM harness with an ohm meter and it is wired correctly and not shorting to ground.

Attached is a TunerPro datalog file. This one is a much longer idle session.
idle.zip
I don't know if the logs reflect it (since I dont know too much about reading it) but the car runs STINKING RICH. I mean really super rich. And I think that is why it runs so terribly. I mean this thing poors black smoke out the pipes, burns your eyes and stinks like hell. I noticed that TunerPro indicated that the computer was dictating a target AFR of around 7.x:1. Why so low? I know a cold motor needs a bit more fuel but 7:1?!

I'm using 97 3.4 dohc injectors, a stock 3.4 dohc bin and I checked the fuel pressure, which at idle was around 35 psi.

Now, keep in mind the o2 sensor is still NOT connected. Can that be the problem? The car never left open loop so I didn't think it would be the problem. I still have code 43.

I don't understand the knock counts in the TunePro log since they seem to reset every once in a while, regardless it racks them up quick.

I took a video too, the video part is crap since it was dark but at least you can hear how it runs and get the idea:

I'm running out of ideas guys. Unless the tune is so wildly off that it is causing these probs or the fact that the o2 sensor isnt hooked up (despite only running in open loop) I don't know whats going on.IMG_2463.zip

[robertisaar]

couple of notes: MAP never changes, not even a single change other than the goofs in the stream. it's also at nearly 70kPa, which may explain why the motor is set to run so rich, which peaks around 10.x to 1, check your open loop target AFR table to see if that matches with what we see in the stream.

knock counts DO rollover every time they hit 255, which explains that.

barometric is also extremely low, 74.2kPa at all times in the log.



so, it seems you have MAP issues alongside the ESC problem...

[jmgtp]

Ugh, yup I see it, MAP value frozen. I converted to the smaller style map sensor rather than the older bulkier one. The new map is the one original to the LX9 and it bolts right into the plenum. I will first replace the sensor since I do happen to have a spare. If the map values still don't change after that then I will begin to look into the wiring.

I'm not sure where to find the a/f ratio in the tables. I'm using the 3.4 bcfa code that is in the downloads section on the site.

[robertisaar]

assuming you're running Sil's XDF, then:

A/F RATIO COLD (COLD ENGINE TEMP. DEPENDENT AIR/FUEL RATIO VS COOLANT TEMPERATURE AND (NVACLD OR NMAPLDAL))

A/F RATIO COLD - CLOSED THROTTLE (AIR/FUEL RATIO VS COOLANT TEMPERATURE FOR COLD ENGINE AND CLOSED THROTTLE)

those would be what we're looking for...

[jmgtp]

I get so confused by the xdf stuff. I opened the bin, then I 'imported from ecu' the ecu file, I'm pretty sure I didn't load an xdf. It still brings up tables and such but most of the AF stuff when I open it is a check box rather than a table. I know I saw some tables that were rpm vs map vs tps I believe but I didn't really understand what was going on with them. I'm pretty bad at reading the ecm stuff.

My first priority is to see what is going on with the MAP sensor and I'll start by throwing the spare MAP sensor on. I'm going to try to datalog it with freescan as well just to be sure that TunerPro isn't the problem. I know I checked each MAP wire for continuity and to be sure there were no shorts to ground. I'm hoping its just a bad sensor.

These ecm problems are by far the most difficult part of the swap, the mechanical stuff was a breeze!

[jmgtp]

Couldn't get the newer style map sensors to work so I wired in the old one and it runs MUCH better now!

Data log:
idling with functioning map.zip

Still have code 43 and crazy knock counts but the motor is idling kinda like it should, I'll burn the 3500/spd bin that I have and see how it does.

Also have an exhaust leak, sounds like it is the front manifold or xover pipe.

Lots of work left to do!

any other thoughts on this code 43 problem?

[pocket-rocket]

I wonder what the difference between the new and old style MAPs are besides packaging. I was thinking of changing to the new style sensor when I do the 96 top end...