3500 Swap Finally Underway, a few questions

[pocket-rocket]

I bought a 10k mile used Centerforce from an Murker Xr4TI that blew a rod (probably cranked boost and beaten on) on ebay years ago for my Ranger. It's held up fine for a couple years now, daily driven. I know I have an alignment tool hanging on the garage. PM me your address and I'll try to get it out to you. Heck, I've put a clutch in both the 91 and the 92. The 91 from the swap and the 92 when it at a throw out bearing, so I might have two danging there. If I do have 2, you won't need to return it. At either rate, for sure resurface the flywheel so the clutch has some new material to bite into after being disturbed.

[jmgtp]

Thanks Jon, that's very generous, I'll be sending you a pm shortly.

On to today's progess. Within an hour I had the engine/trans out bringing my total time worked to about 4 hours to go from complete car to engine and trans out of the car, not bad. In fact it all went smoothly and easily. I haven't even suffered so much as a paper cut yet.

Just starting to pull her out, noticed a ground cable on the bell housing I missed and I was struggling to move the a/c compressor far enough forward to clear the block. I ended up lowering the engine back into the cradle and pulling the radiator out, with the extra space for the compressor to move forward extracting the engine became more simple.

getting there, a couple nudges and finally,


the empty engine bay, the 'tray' for the 3100 type motor mount is there and look! theres that socket I lost 10 years ago. Not kidding, it was one of those you drop it and it never hit the ground dammit moments from many many years ago.



I think the LX9 will go in easier, considering it is a much more narrow motor.

I pulled the rear motor mount and bracket as well as the bearing mount for the trans intermediate shaft off the LQ1 and mocked it up on the LX9. Everything lined up perfect. The bearing mount bolt holes did need to be opened up just a hair. So it looks like I will be able to use my LQ1 rear motor mount (pictured) and the 3100 lower mount (not pictured, bolts to oil pan) and have a pretty solidly mounted motor.
The bracket for the LQ1 motor mount uses the 2 bolt holes that the crank trigger CPS uses. Luckily, the thickness of the bracket is the same as the washers I was using to space the CPS out, so I just ditched the washers and it looks perfect - didn't snug it down yet because I forgot to pick up thread locker.

here is the LX9 with the a/c bracket (which I believe is from a Gen II 3.1 car) and the LQ1 rear motor mount/bracket.


and one last shot of the dohc:


I'll probably work some tomorrow to transfer sensors, remaining brackets, etc. I have plans for the weekend so I'll be picking it back up next week.

Next up: I have to pull the Getrag off the LQ1 to get to the flywheel and inspect whether or not I want to reuse the clutch. Once I have as much as possible done on the LX9 I will take it off the stand so I can mount the flywheel, clutch and the new Getrag.

That's all for now!

[pocket-rocket]

the empty engine bay, the 'tray' for the 3100 type motor mount is there and look! theres that socket I lost 10 years ago. Not kidding, it was one of those you drop it and it never hit the ground dammit moments from many many years ago.

I've had a few of those, lol.

I got your PM. By way of the process of elimination, out of the 3 pilot tools I have marked GM, two were identical and I've only done 2 different clutch setups in GM vehicles. In my W bodies and in a 2k Sonoma I rebuilt the engine in. So, GM9 it is and there is no need to return it. I'll print out your address and tomorrow after work I'll grab an envelope from Meijer and head off to the post office to send it out, so worst case it should be in late Fridays mail. And as far as a few bucks via paypal goes, you held on to those mounts (that I still haven't used yet) longer than I expected you to mostly because of my absent mindedness, so I wouldn't dare think of asking for anything for doing this

[jmgtp]

haha, sounds good, thanks Jon.

Today's progress...or lack of. I worked for about 2 hours and didn't get much done.
I removed the CPS from the dohc and installed it in the external trigger on the LX9. The LX9 has a 2 wire coolant sensor in the rear head that looks physically the same as the one in the dohc so I don't think I need to swap. I remember reading a lot about coolant sensor issues in the 3500 swap thread, was that for the single wire sensor? I can't remember if that is the one for the ecm or dash gauge. The LX9 doesn't appear to have a spot on the head for it, which brings me to my next question...

The LX9 block has two plugs (one each side) that lead into the water jacket. I removed the one on the rear of the block and threaded the knock sensor from the dohc into it. The knock sensor sits lower in the LX9 block than the dohc block, will that have any impact on its reading? I don't think so since knock sound would travel easily through the block. Any thoughts on it? Anyone know the torque spec for the KS? I googled and found 14 ft lbs.

Here is a pic, you can see the KS threaded in and the bolt above and to the right is actually retaining the stock LX9 KS which is completely unlike the other KS.


Now, I might just get luck and the plug on the front of the block will be the same diameter as the 1 wire coolant sensor in the dohc head. My concern is that if the ecm uses the 1 wire sensor I'd want it in the head since that is where the temp really matters and the coolant in the block theoretically won't be as hot as the head. Thoughts on this? Its a moot point if the ecm uses the 2 wire sensor because the LX9 has that in the head.

I began to separate the 284 from the dohc as I need at minimum the flywheel and possibly the clutch should I decide to reuse it. I have the dohc on the crane still and I lowered the trans onto a tranny jack. First I removed the bolts that retain the flywheel shield to the trans. Then the bolts securing the trans to the bellhousing. The trans then pulled away from the engine about an inch but now it is hung up. I think the release bearing is latched or stuck on the pressure plate. How do I get it to detach? It seems I must somehow force the release bearing off the PP. Is that why there is that access hole above the slave cylinder? Just how to I get in there to do it? Prybar? What?

Thanks!

[pocket-rocket]

IIRC, the gauge uses the single wire and the ECM uses the 2 wire in the thermostat housing. As for how to detach the transmission, there was something in my Helms manual that said to take a large flat head screwdriver and place it between the pressure plate and release bearing and twist. Remember how the 284 transmission requires a pull type clutch? Well the release bearing snaps into the pressure plate with a snap ring, sorta like axles do the transmission, IIRC. I've always had a pain of a time pulling them apart, so I unbolted the pressure plate from the flywheel when I did it on the GTP that took part in the tranny swap into the 91. The release bearing was trashed on the 92 and I think that one just kind of fell apart. What is different about mine vs yours is I had no plans on reusing any of the clutch kits in those cars. The 91 got a fresh clutch for the swap and the 92 got a whole new clutch kit as well while I had the transmission off despite just the release bearing being shot.

[jmgtp]

If the 1 wire sensor is for the gauge only then I'm not too concerned where it goes.

I figured the release bearing had to be clipped in somehow. I think I understand what you are saying about using a screwdriver. I admit, I have the service manuals, but I took the easy way out and asked here. I'll have to dust the manuals off and take a look to get a better idea.

Couldn't find a set of 3400 w car exhaust manifolds for a price that wasn't absurd so I ordered up some stainless J bends and I'll be welding up a crossover.

The only two delays I see with the swap is fabbing up the exhaust and repairing my leaking steering rack.

[pocket-rocket]

I think I've tried to release the release bearing from the pressure plate but never had any luck. I know when they are separated and you use the release fork to push it into the pressure plate, it does snap in there pretty well. BTW, I'm on my way to the post office. I'll edit this thread when I get back. The snow is starting to pick up, so I need to get out there before it gets too bad. Besides, it's only 8 degrees right now with a wind chill of -10 which is cold for around here. It's also windy and I imagine it's going to drift pretty good if we get too much more snow tonight, meaning they won't be out clearing roads until it stops coming down.

[jmgtp]

Thanks Jon, I appreciate you sending the tool. I'm dying for it to be spring. Had a record 30" snow last weekend and another few inches last night.

Since I can get the trans separated from the engine by about an inch or so are you saying that is enough space to get a wrench in there and remove the bolts that retain the pressure plate to the flywheel? I'm not sure I have the clearance to do that. I'm going to see what the factory service manual says and at least give it a try their way. I'm sure they will reference some tool that doesn't exist anymore.

It sounds like when I reassemble I apply pressure on the release fork in the same direction that the slave cylinder would and it should snap the release bearing on.

[pocket-rocket]

I didn't expect you to respond before I got back (hence a new post so you see it)

Estimated date of arrival, Monday the 24th.

Yes, I had enough clearance to get a wrench in there to undo the pressure plate to flywheel bolts. I remember because the last one I had was the one at the bottom as the engine dangled from the engine hoist and the transmission/clutch assembly rotated and spun around the one bolt, almost pinching my fingers because I was working on the bottom bolt... So yeah, I would put a couple trans to engine bolts in to keep it from doing that on you if you have to do it the way I did. IIRC, there is a notch in the very bottom of the bellhousing, so that's probably where I got a wrench in there. I would have liked to have the ratcheting wrenches of today back then...

You almost have the idea for the release fork. Since it's a pull type clutch the slave pushes on the release fork and the release fork pivots it pulls on the release bearing. So when you assemble you will have to pull backward (away from the engine) to get the release bearing to push into the middle of the pressure plate.

[jmgtp]

Thank you! and with my phone buzzing everytime I get an email its easy to know when someone has posted a reply.

I think I see what you are saying now about the fork and removing the pressure plate. I'm going to try to give some attempt at dislogding the release bearing through the access hole on top of the trans. When that doesn't work I will unbolt the pressure plate from the flywheel (and I do thankfully have a set of ratcheting wrenches). With the trans off the motor hopefully then I could muscle the release bearing free.

[jmgtp]

Realized I need another part... my engine does not have the bracket that bolts to the clyinder head to support the torque strut mount on the drivers side. I also need to locate a set of the torque strut mounts and I'm not sure if the bracket on the radiator support is the same as the dohc one. It probably is, in which case I will need to only pickup 1 more.

Anyone have that stuff in a pile somewhere? I'd be willing to shell out a reasonable payment for it.

[jmgtp]

First bit of trouble!

On Friday evening I decided to test fit the new engine (no trans). I dropped it in and lined up the motor mounts into the cradle and then I still had to support it with the crane since there was no trans on it. I lined it up to where it looked like it would be sitting. The LX9 rear exhaust manifold is super close to the plastic shield over the firewall. Considering I need to make a 90* bend as well that would put the pipes through the firewall. The only question mark here is whether or not I had the engine lined up just right. I think I did.

So the dilemma is do I cut out the plastic and see how much space I gain, do I hack up the LX9 manifold and try to make it turn towards the trans, or do I ditch the LX9 manifolds and use 3400 parts.

Right now, I'm considering cutting the plastic out and seeing what I gain. Problem is I don't know if that is protecting wires beneath it or something else, or if it is just there to deaden noise from going in the car. I know there has been other 3500 swaps into a W car but did they use the factory LX9 manifolds?

Here is a pic of the rear manifold nearly touching the plastic cover over the firewall, sorry for the bad quality. The manifold exhausts straight out, not down like the front one. I could have had the flywheel end of the engine sitting too far back, but I eyeballed it best I could. Real test I suppose will be mocking things up with the trans on the motor.

[Jonpro03]

I don't think there are any wires right there. It's up to you what you want to do, but I'd use 3400 manis.

[jmgtp]

I cut the plastic back and you are right, nothing but a bit of insulation back there. It gave me a bit more room but not enough. I already have pipes and flanges on the way to make a crossover for the LX9 manifolds, otherwise I would be going with 3400 manifolds now.

I cut the flange off the rear 3500 manifold and I was left with a large egg shaped port. I think I can hammer a 2.5" tube to the same shape, weld it up and connect it to the downpipe. The hard part will be merging the crossover pipe in. I feel like I'm obligated to try to make the LX9 manifolds work at this point since the rest of the hardware is on the way. It's just more work than I thought it would involve to make the exhaust work.

[CNCguy]

Would another front manifold work for the rear? If so, I have some here if you pay shipping. IIRC, it will fit in a medium flat rate USPS box.