3500 swap into 86 Fiero questions

[caffeine]

So the 2.8 engine in my Fiero is currently being very troublesome, and I'm seriously considering an LX9 swap as there is one for sale locally (from an '05 or '06 G6). Fortunately it already has a 7x external crank sensor mounted, and there may be a throttle body adapter on it as well (haven't looked at it yet). The guy selling it said it does come with the water pump, but the other accessories are not present.

Here are the things I've learned from research:
I can modify the existing 2.8 motor mounts to mount the engine and transmission (will be using 4 speed manual)
I can use an unbalanced flywheel from an '88 Fiero and a 4 spd style clutch and pressure plate to mount the engine to the transmission. Bellhousing pattern is the same.
I have settled on the 7730 w/custom chip for tuning the swap, mostly because I will already have the 7x crank trigger and for ease of wiring (most of the work involves re-pinning the existing harness to the new ECM and possibly lengthening/shortening wires to sensors)
I need to either adapt the returnless fuel rail or grab a 3400 rail and injectors from a JY. I'm inclined to go the 3400 route. Also, is it ok to use some fuel injection hose and clamps to connect the rail to the stock fuel lines? When I replaced the fuel pump I noticed that's all that holds the lines that go from the tank to the hard lines.
I will also need to grab a set of coils and ICM from a 3400, as well as the wiring going from the crank sensor to the ICM
Exhaust will be somewhat custom, or adapt the 2.8 exhaust. Since I'm on a tight budget, I may try to re-use as much of the stock exhaust as I can. I'll be cutting out the cat though most likely.
I will be deleting the EGR for simplicity; ideally I would keep it but I don't want to bother with the added effort. My goal is to make this swap as quick and painless as is possible.
I'm not worried about a power steering delete, as I have seen some swaps where others simply moved the tensioner location and swapped it's pulley with one of the idler pulleys. I'm also not worried if I need to cut the decklid a little to clearance the alternator.
I'm also under the impression I will need to make/have made some sort of dogbone mount to control side to side engine motion.

I have some questions about what more I would need to complete the swap.
1.) For tuning, are there any 7730 bin files available that people have used to run a 3500 swap? I would prefer not to have to wait for a chip in the mail and could have a local tuning shop burn the chip for me if I gave them the tune. If anyone is willing to share their tune with me I'd be grateful.
2.) What size injectors are necessary? I understand that the ECM can be tuned to allow for more than one size; I actually have an LT1 with a set of 24# injectors that I will be upgrading, so could I use those or am I better off using stock 3400 injectors? Also, is the stock V6 Fiero fuel pump adequate? I just replaced mine a few weeks ago.
Oh and do I need an injector harness as well?
3.) Will I need to grab any more sensors to run the 7730 or can I use sensors from the 3500? I would prefer not to re-use sensors from the 2.8 but the MAP sensor and CTS are new on that engine, so I would re-use those maybe. I'm not sure if it's compatible, but my LT1 also has an extra knock sensor (wiring only has one pigtail, engine has two), so could I use that knock sensor or could I even use the stock 3500 knock sensor? I understand that the knock retard could be tuned out, but I personally don't think that's very wise.
4.) I see that most people replace the CTS with one from an older engine. Why can't the 3500 sensor be used? Also, the 2.8 in my fiero has a thread adapter in it where the CTS installs (stock afaik). Is this the same thread adapter that others use to install older CTSs in the 3500 stock location? When I pulled out the sensor on the 2.8 it came with it at first, that's how I noticed it. I never see this adapter mentioned by others in their swap threads, they either buy a new one or drill and tap a hole somewhere else.
Update: I've found out that the 3500 CTS reads differently from the older sensors. Best to use a three wire CTS for a 3100/3400.
5.) How does the EVAP system work? I'm not overly concerned about it because I never bothered with it when I swapped my LT1 into my other car, but would prefer to use it rather than get rid of it. If it's costly to keep it then I won't bother.
6.) Anyone know if any of the stock Fiero rad hoses hook up? Also, does the Fiero thermostat housing get re-used (like with many Fiero swaps), is there a reason not to use it, or is it just better to keep the stock thermostat housing?
7.) Which crank sensor should be used with the WOT-tech 7x crank trigger?
8.) Is it ok to use a stock-style 3500 alternator, or should I figure out a way to mount the 2.8 alternator on it? I'm assuming the wiring pigtail (and maybe circuits) will be different on the 3500.
9.) If the engine doesn't include a starter, can I re-use the 2.8's starter?

If I go through with this swap I want to be prepared for most of the work involved. I know that once I buy the engine I'll be able to see some of these things for myself but I would prefer to have fewer surprises. The engine would be staying stock for the foreseeable future. Thanks everyone!

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[neophile_17]

Some things you might want to keep in mind.

The 88 flywheel you want is balanced, it's the earlier flywheel like on your 86 that is unbalanced.

ericjon262 found that the external 7X trigger is supposed to mount using the same holes as the Fiero engine mount. This affected the alignment between the trigger wheel and sensor. I don't remember how he resolved it.

I vaguely recall that an early alternator needed to be used with a one of the newer motors because it's controlled by the PCM which the 7730 won't do but that may be one of the LZ motors.

One of the guys over on Pennocks got Trueleo to make a set of headers for the 3500. You could also adapt the 3500 manifolds but using the Fiero manifolds on a 3400 has barely enough sealing surface and the 3500 has bigger ports.

I used FI hose and double hose clamps on the high pressure fuel side. The stock fuel pump is good enough.

I was going to leave off the EVAP stuff at first but it's really easy and the solenoid came with my engine so I hooked it up. It's a ground and one wire to the ECM. You also need one vacuum hose from the intake to a T to the 2 ports on the solenoid not connected to the canister. Done and no gas smell from a vented cap.

One of my temp sensors is reading incorrectly so I won't speak to that until I figure it out myself.

I think you need a knock sensor form an engine with similar characteristics. I got mine from a 3.1L because it's response is correct for the ECM and it's an Al head iron block motor.

The Fiero hoses and water neck are not reused. I'll try to post the PNs of the hoses I used.

I think you can re-use the Fiero starter but you shouldn't. It weighs about twice as much.

Hope this helps a little. I finished my 3400 swap in September and will be moving on to an LX9 as soon as I can get the LA1 in the race car.

~sam

[caffeine]

The 88 flywheel you want is balanced, it's the earlier flywheel like on your 86 that is unbalanced.

Just went to price out a flywheel and it looks like no parts stores around here (Vancouver Island) can even order it in. If I can get it at some place like Autozone cheap, I could just walk across the ferry to Port Angeles to save time and shipping ordering it in. If I ordered it in the mail the price would likely double from $50 to $100 (priced out at Rock Auto) shipping across the border.

Some things you might want to keep in mind.
ericjon262 found that the external 7X trigger is supposed to mount using the same holes as the Fiero engine mount. This affected the alignment between the trigger wheel and sensor. I don't remember how he resolved it.

I would imagine the sensor or the trigger could be shimmed properly with washers. I know that Fiero swappers have successfully used the 7x external trigger.

One of the guys over on Pennocks got Trueleo to make a set of headers for the 3500. You could also adapt the 3500 manifolds but using the Fiero manifolds on a 3400 has barely enough sealing surface and the 3500 has bigger ports.

I was more or less planning on using the downpipe-muffler part; I realize that the 2.8 manifolds are puny but I might see if I can use 3.1 manifolds. In any case the engine I'm looking at getting comes with 3 manifolds, so I might be able to use those with a custom y pipe

I think you need a knock sensor form an engine with similar characteristics. I got mine from a 3.1L because it's response is correct for the ECM and it's an Al head iron block motor.

Just cross referenced the LT1 knock sensor with vehicles it's compatible with. It does come with SOME 3.1 and 2.8 MPFI engines but I'm not sure if those engines have the 7730 or not. Anyone know if the 7730 can be tuned to work with different knock sensor signals? Edit: just cross referenced a different brand knock sensor listed for an LT1 and got a different set of applications, in this case it is listed for the 3.1 90-92 Camaro/Firebird which I'm pretty sure uses a 7730 computer. I'm still unsure if the part is the same though...

I think you can re-use the Fiero starter but you shouldn't. It weighs about twice as much.

I would use the 3500 starter if it comes with the engine but I wanted to know my options in case it doesn't. The guy selling the engine is away until Feb 10th so I won't be able to see it till then.

I vaguely recall that an early alternator needed to be used with a one of the newer motors because it's controlled by the PCM which the 7730 won't do but that may be one of the LZ motors.

Just in case, will a 3400 alternator work and if so will it bolt to the 3500 alt bracket? It looks in pictures like it has mounting holes in similar positions.

Thanks for answering my questions. Anyone know if the LT1 24# fuel injectors can work with a 3400 fuel rail? I know they have the same plug style as my 2.8 which would be convenient.

[neophile_17]

I cross-referenced the flywheel using Rock Auto and there are other applications. Rumor is the original 88 flywheel was lighter than the more common later flywheels. Maybe this is why interchange info differs??? I got a flywheel and hardware at the junkyard from a 98 4 cylinder S10. I imagine any parts store should be able to get one of those. The starter did require a shim but I used the one I took off my 2.8L when it got a modern starter.

I would verify that the knock sensor was used on an Aluminum head application (the RWD versions were iron) but if so it's probably fine. I don't believe you can tune for different knock sensors. My guess is it's part of the hardware.

~sam

[caffeine]

Just tried pricing out the flywheel again using 98 4 cyl S10 and got the same result more or less. None of their warehouses store them and they can order them in at about $130/$140 or so. So it doesn't look like that's gonna be an option for me.

[neophile_17]

Clip from my work in progress 3400 swap guide:

My driver side hose came from an 97 Astro 4.3L Goodyear part # 62168. It needs to be shortened it a little for a good fit. The passenger side coolant hose is Goodyear part # 62126 which is an upper radiator hose from a 97 Cavalier.

When I put the 3400 into the race car I'll be looking at the possibility of modifying the Fiero coolant tube for use on the drivers side instead of the Astro hose. The way it is now is a little too close to the exhaust for my comfort.

~sam

[caffeine]

Thanks for the rad hose part numbers, I'll be adding those to my shopping list. Some further news, it looks like I may get a steal of a deal on the engine. If it turns out to be good, I'll be getting the complete 3500 - alternator, external 7x crank trigger, throttle body adapter (this was unclear, but he said it was partially set-up for throttle control), polyurethane Fiero cradle bushings, 3400 ICM and coils, 7730 ECM, and possibly the Ostrich 2.0 tuning set-up all for $650. The other things I will need to complete the swap look to be 3400 fuel rail/injectors, knock sensor, rad hoses, exhaust, CTS, and flywheel. If I do end up with the Ostrich tuning setup, I should be able to tune it myself and save having to pay for a custum chip. This is all looking promising so far. I may or may not need an alternator. I'll be going to look at the engine on Friday.

Just today I removed the 2.8 from the Fiero and that was pretty simple. The engine should be separated from the transmission and on a stand tomorrow (need to buy bolts to be able to mount the stand to where the bellhousing mounts).

I know I'll get scolded for this but I plan on re-using the stock 4 speed clutch, simply because it's practically brand new. When I pulled it out it definitely looked like it's hardly been driven on. Obviously it could slip with the extra engine power but I wasn't planning on driving the car hard anyways (want it to be a daily driver, with occasional autocrossing).

[neophile_17]

If you get scolded I'll surely get beaten. I re-used the Iron Duke clutch I got on clearance 5000 miles before my 3400 swap. It's held up fine. I don't launch like a drag racer so that certainly helps.

That's a killer deal. Makes up for overpaying on the flywheel a little. That reminds me- I wouldn't do it but I know a couple people have had the weight cut off the back of their unbalanced flywheel to make it balanced.

Some of the 3500 swappers have used a special fuel filter assembly from a later LS* vehicle that regulates the fuel pressure to the correct level for the 3500 rail. Just another option.

~sam

[caffeine]

Some of the 3500 swappers have used a special fuel filter assembly from a later LS* vehicle that regulates the fuel pressure to the correct level for the 3500 rail. Just another option.

Yes I've read about this but at the same time I would be nervous about using injectors that have been disconnected from a fuel system for 2+ years. I wouldn't count on them all firing.

[caffeine]

I ended up buying the engine so I'm moving forward with the swap. I started a swap thread on the localish Fiero forum. So far I've got the wiring about half done and most of the details sorted out. I've decided to go with a vette fuel filter and use the 3500 injectors. A local guy has offered to lend me the equipment I need to burn chips for the 7730 so tuning is mostly sorted out. I'll be waiting for a G1 adapter from Moates and an LX5 throttle body adapter plate from WOT-Tech though before I can finish.