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SappySE107
10-02-2003, 07:14 AM
I figured this was a good discussion, and if we kept it more specific to a fair debate (pushrods only), we can continue this.

Sorin
10-03-2003, 01:55 AM
Okay, well this is going kinda slow. I'll post my opening arguement on the 3800.

http://www.madison.com/communities/gbfg/rainbow-fly%20copy.jpg

Okay, so why is that motor so gay? You would think GM could get more than 200hp out of it. It's not like we are shooting for maximum theoretical power output. I mean Christ, come on, 200hp? From 3.8L? And I was shocked to learn only recently that it got iron heads. Now what is the deal with that. Hello, this is 2003, not 1973.

I MUCH prefer the 3500, but I couldn't think of anything to argue about, so bleh.

Rhedalert
10-03-2003, 02:45 AM
Iron heads are for trucks or diesels :lol:

gpse3400
10-03-2003, 03:40 AM
Okay, well this is going kinda slow. I'll post my opening arguement on the 3800.

http://www.madison.com/communities/gbfg/rainbow-fly%20copy.jpg

Okay, so why is that motor so gay? You would think GM could get more than 200hp out of it. It's not like we are shooting for maximum theoretical power output. I mean Christ, come on, 200hp? From 3.8L? And I was shocked to learn only recently that it got iron heads. Now what is the deal with that. Hello, this is 2003, not 1973.

I MUCH prefer the 3500, but I couldn't think of anything to argue about, so bleh.

Nice flag. But the 3800 just isn't for me....

SappySE107
10-03-2003, 08:56 AM
Maybe the 3800 is for transexuals then:P What flag is that?

The iron heads are great for boost though...

Sorin
10-03-2003, 03:09 PM
What's the flag for trans? I dunno. But for the gay flag all I did was use Google's image search (god I love that feature) and searched for "gay rainbow".

Cliff8928
10-03-2003, 05:05 PM
I MUCH prefer the 3500, but I couldn't think of anything to argue about, so bleh.

How about that the 3800 and 3500 seem to have nearly identical power output, yet the 3500 looks to me more efficient!

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

Sorin
10-03-2003, 06:05 PM
Yeah that was one thing I was going to mention before, because it just kicks ass. It makes the same hp at the same rpms as the 3800, and it makes an insignificant amount less torque, though at 400rpm more (which is no biggie to me). Numbers aside, what I want to see are the power curves for both engines on the same scale to compare them. That'd be interesting.

That the 3x00s were designed from the outset to be a V6 is definitely a plus (well, evolved from an earlier engine, which itself was designed as a V6 from the start), rather than the V8-with-two-cylinders-lopped-off 3800 (that's true right?). Virtually every V6 I see out in the industry is 60. Whereas most V8s are 90. Maybe there is something inherently better in using 60 for a V6, rather than taking a V8 (90 typical) and hacking off two cylinders?

Comparing hp/L figures, the 3800 in natural from is 52.6, whereas the 3500 is 57.1. WOOT :D 5 more hp per liter. (Which is .87hp per cubic inch for the 3800 and .94hp/cu. in. for the 3500). Now if they could only apply whatever it is they are doing with the LS1/LS6 to the 3x00, that'd kick ASS (LS6 is 1.17hp/cu.in. and 71.05hp/L; which is comparable to many OHC engines. How's that for pimped out?).

Special Ross
10-03-2003, 06:30 PM
I believe the 4.3L V-6 is an LT1 engine with 2 cylinders chopped off, and the 3800 I think was just designed as a V-6. I could be wrong on that...

Sorin
10-03-2003, 07:01 PM
Yeah, I saw specs one time where the 4.3L bore &/or stroke was the same as a 5.7L, implying that it was just a shorted V8. But the 3.8L on the other hand I'm not sure about, I've only heard people say that it was a chopped V8 too. I don't know personally though. Though I must say it has rather ghey bore and stroke figures when you look at them in mm. Compared to most other GMs engines which have nice, clean, rounded numbers, the 3800 gets all stupid. WTF?

Justin
10-03-2003, 09:27 PM
The 3.8 Buick engine was always designed to be a V6. The Chevrolet 3.8 V6 is a 305 V8 missing two cylinders. I was confused about it until I did some research a couple months back. My 77 Ventura actually came factory with a 3.8 Buick V6, and my roommates 1980 Impala has a 3.8 Chev. V6.

As for which one's better, the 3800 is a tank of an engine, good and bad. You can't beat it for longevity and power. Lets see how these 3500 engine last pushing 200hp. Do you think they'll last like the stronger 3800? I don't. That's not to say they won't run 200,000 miles, I know my 2.8 in my Cutlass, with 179000 miles, and my bro's ex-cutlass, with well over 200000 miles, both had crosshatching on the cyls when I did the head gaskets.(cough)flaw(cough). I'd love to have a 3800 in my cutlass, but I like the mileage and power I have with the 2.8, so I think I'm content. I love the 60 degree engines, but I think the 3.8 and 5.7 are the two best engines GM ever made, and I don't think they'll ever lose that claim.

Whatever, just my .02

Justin,
happy owner of 4 60 degree V6 cars, 0 90 degree........

Rhedalert
10-03-2003, 11:30 PM
Why wouldn't the 3500 last? It's not like they had to stick a blower on it to get good power (cough)3.8(cough) (Duh) The 3400 is doing just fine and could do what those 2.8's can do for longetivity

Anonymous
10-04-2003, 12:33 AM
Yeah, there was a post on v6z24 recently about a couple 3400 minivans with 300k-400k kilometers on them.

GPXSS
10-04-2003, 09:40 AM
Yeah, there was a post on v6z24 recently about a couple 3400 minivans with 300k-400k kilometers on them.

you mean that didnt have the intake manifold gaskets fail? :P (Emoticons! Yay!!)

Personally I think the 3500 will be the strongest 60 yet, and id bet its stronger than the 3800.

I just read in Car & Driver last night about the Malibu:
"Although the 3500 is based off of the current 3400, GM says that youd be hard pressed to find a part that was not improved upon in the entire engine"

I dont see them updating the 3800... probably because its being flown away by the dodo bird. :lol:

Justin
10-04-2003, 12:20 PM
I dont see them updating the 3800...

Then what's all this 3.8, 3800, 3800 Series 2, 3800 Series 3 stuff?

GPXSS
10-04-2003, 02:18 PM
so tell me what they updated besides the name.

Justin
10-04-2003, 03:14 PM
1977
Odd fire design in early model year
Even fire design produced late in model year
Cylinder heads revised with new exhaust ports and cast rocker stands

1978
Harmonic balancer bolt changed from 5/8" to 3/4" (both versions were produced this year)

1979
Intake ports revised for better breathing

1980
Oil sump and feed passages enlarged from 0.500" to 0.625"

1981
New connecting rods with heavy section cap (they have 2 dots with #763 on the side of the rod)
New harmonic balancer and flywheel for different balance due to new connecting rods
Block revised for rod cap clearance

1982
M10x1.5 metric for accessory mounting holes on heads
Boss on the rear of block for Knock Sensor
Transverse FWD 3.0 V6 introduced in the Skylarkk (X body) with the FWD bolt pattern

1983
Head revised to remove iron at outside edge for valve cover baffle clearance
New intake valve guide seals to fit 0.546" instead of 0.600" guides.
Revised oil pan and valve covers with baffles

1984
New camshaft design with 0.030" larger base circle diameter
0.015" shorter push rods and 0.015" shorter lifters to accommodate base circle (8.703" vs. 8.718")
Oil groove added to the block behind cam bearing #1 and oil groove removed from cam shaft from the cam shaft
In mid-year, the 3.8 FWD V6 was added for the MFI Century T-Type

1985
Oil pan went 20 bolts from 14 bolts
New block, front cover and oil pan
Torque-to-yield non reusable head bolts

1986
Deck height reduced by 0.035" to accommodate 0.058" thick composition head gaskets
Torque-to-yield reusable head bolts
Water drain plugs added to block on both sides between freeze plugs
3.8 liter transverse FWD available
VIN B with flat lifters
VIN 3 with roller lifters
New heads/valve train with pedestal style rockers
Gerotor oil pump
Needle bearing camshaft thrust bearing (P/N 25532588) *which works great with the turbo 3.8s!
3/8" dipstick hole with O-ring seal on tube

1987
3.8 liter transverse FWD changes
Mid-year change to 0.057" longer push rods (7.966") to reduce
cold start noise
New timing chain cover and oil pump pressure regulator
7/16" dipstick tube with O-ring seal

1988
3800 transverse mounted FWD
New on-center block design with balance shaft for improved primary balance
Steel camshaft with improved precision tolerances
Crankshaft balanced with 50% on bob weights
Lighter Slipper skirt pistons with thinner rings for reduced mass

1989
3.8 liter RWD resurrected for special Turbo Trans Am 20th Anniversary edition
3300 (3.3 Liter) version introduced

1990
EV-6 VIN L with one piece rear seal introduced in the FWD Regal
Tuned Intake

1991
3300 version upgraded to one piece rear seal (blocks 25534816, 24502090, 24500498, and crank 25534817)
All 3800s have one piece rear seal

1992
3300 version heads upgraded to same as 3800 but they have one less bolt hole on intake side

And so on...

Just watch this, if anyone can make a 60 degree V6 with half the hp of this 3.8, they win a cookie.

http://fasttrackperformance.com/page5/Chow%20movie%20files/ChrisTTGN.wmv

brian89gp
10-04-2003, 03:59 PM
Just watch this, if anyone can make a 60 degree V6 with half the hp of this 3.8, they win a cookie.


I know of a couple that are in the 400-450hp range and are still under 2BAR.

RebelGT
10-04-2003, 07:48 PM
Last I heard that was no longer a 3.8, but a TT SBC...

Rhedalert
10-04-2003, 08:44 PM
So that had to improve that engine every year? I wonder how good the original engine was

Anonymous
10-04-2003, 10:31 PM
That GN is one hot car, but with every 3.8 they gotta boost the hell out of it to get lots of horsepower. Now I can't deny that I love the 3800 Supercharged cars, but Infinity G35 V6 is putting out 280hp without boost. It is an (expensive) 3.5DOHC, so I shouldn't be applying that engine to this thread. I just love that car... mmm.. if only I was rich.

GPXSS
10-05-2003, 10:15 AM
Dont mean to come off as an ass Justin, but I really was talking about current (2000 and up) revisions. I can ramble off just as long of a list for the 60

My point is that GM is getting rid of the 3800 so they are not putting any more research into it.

v6h.o.
10-05-2003, 02:42 PM
My point is that GM is getting rid of the 3800 so they are not putting any more research into it.

yup, im suprised, (well not really i guess with gm being slow at putting things on the market) that the series II has lasted this long, back when i was in school (GM apprenticeship) in 98 they were talking about how the 3800 is dead and will be discontinued...

Anonymous
10-05-2003, 04:25 PM
they could turn it into a Turbo diesel engine for Caddillacs and trucks.. lol

Anonymous
10-05-2003, 06:51 PM
I'd be all for a medium sized TD for the S-series and half ton fullsize pickups. But I think it should be designed from the ground up as a diesel.

Anonymous
10-05-2003, 07:34 PM
It could also be great for cars.. they could make a very fuel efficient vehicle. Maybe put it in something ugly like a Saturn SUV or something. Cheap on fuel.

Sorin
10-05-2003, 07:48 PM
It could also be great for cars.. they could make a very fuel efficient vehicle.

Absolutely. Especially when you consider the staggering proportion of cars sold in Europe that are diesels. Small diesel engines in cars (sometimes with forced induction) do quite well over there, since circumstances call for it.

VW actually sells a couple of diesel cars over here. I don't have any personal experience with them, but when I was researching new cars to help someone I know with her decision, I came across an enthusiast board for the Jetta with the turbo diesel. Those cars/engines are apparently very mod friendly, aside from the crazy gas mileage.

Anonymous
10-05-2003, 08:06 PM
one guy I know used to have an 89 Jetta diesel (I forget if it was turbo or not.. i think it wasn't). He said it got awsome milege. I've heard commercials on the radio for the Jetta TDI, and that it gets 900km per tank.

Justin
10-05-2003, 10:22 PM
Yeah, I know we're talking mostly 3800 vs 3400/3500. I'm just saying, both engines have changed a LOT since conception. Look at an old Citation X-11 with the 2.8 and the junk 2 barrel on there, the 3500 is a pretty ancient design basically if you compare it to most of the competition. I'm glad the 60deg. is finally getting some cubes, and I'd like to take a new Malibu with one out for a tear. What confuses me is that rumor that GM is dealing with Honda to supply a new V6, why not just use the 3500? If GM gets rid of the 3800 and the 60 degree and goes with a pile of jap crap, I'm not buying any more GM. I'll buy a Dodge or Ford "shudder".

P.S. how fair is a 60 deg. vs 3800 thread on a 60 degree website anyway??? That's the only reason I'm defending the 3800...

SappySE107
10-05-2003, 10:30 PM
Who said this was fair? Its just a discussion, not the final conclusion to be written into the book of time.

cutlassdude96
10-05-2003, 11:09 PM
Saturn is getting Honda engines, and the 3.5 shortstar was sopouse to repalce the 3800 but the 3.5 got killed

Sorin
10-05-2003, 11:12 PM
The deal with Honda is for Honda to supply V6 engines to Saturn for the Vue. That's it. Well maybe the Chevrolet Equinox if that POS ever comes out, but that I'm not sure about, as I think it was going to get a 3x00. Other than that, the Honda V6 goes into no other GM product. Saturn Vue is pretty much all.

Rhedalert
10-06-2003, 12:53 AM
Nobody buys saturn anyway....they kill Oldsmobile, yet saturn remains? :roll: lol

GPXSS
10-06-2003, 08:28 AM
I had "heard" ( so dont take this as fact ) that Honda would supply GM a few engines if GM would supply Honda with duramax deisel engines for Honda's upcoming trucks.

ikessky
10-06-2003, 09:12 AM
So they're killing of the 3800 huh? Well, I guess that seals it. I was going to put a SC 3800 into my '01 Century, but by that time, the 3500 will hopefully have a SC kit for it. Then I can still stick with the 60 degree crowd. :wink: If they have the same power in NA form, why wouldn't I do it?

Anonymous
10-06-2003, 09:53 AM
I thought I had read that the Honda deal was Honda building some GM-designed powerplants, with GM supplying diesels to Honda as a trade-off.

Anonymous
10-10-2003, 11:46 AM
How about we throw in some Ford here :P
Ford Mustang 3.8 V6 .. 190HP and a very slow car.

Had a 85 T-bird with a 3.8, and I believe that engine was rated at 120hp or something like that. What a POS, not enough power to haul around a 4000lb car. lol.

are those engines 60* or are they just a 302 with 2 cylinders chopped off?

geoffinbc
10-10-2003, 01:44 PM
Just watch this, if anyone can make a 60 degree V6 with half the hp of this 3.8, they win a cookie.

Ok number one when that car was made it had a 3.8L NOT a 3800. Big difference. Also that car in that video does NOT have a 3.8L it is a SBC so don't even start.

Just to throw in a little more info here. Our engines are made with a 60* angle simply for BALANCE. The 120* crank throw angle makes it perfect. Hence no balance shaft. Now don't start thinking that with no balance shaft a 90* V6 will blow apart because that is simply NOT the case but some people seem to think it is. The 3.8L (chevy and buick blocks), 4.0L buick, 3.3L buick and the 4.3L chevy all started out without a balance shaft and were just fine. But without the shaft orderly vibrations will set up and transmit through the car. This it what you may feel as a low RPM shudder in you car.

Now why do V8's primarily use 90*? Well with the cylinders aranged with a shared journal you have 4 perfectally offset throws on your crank and again it balances out perfect.

Something bad again VW has decided to build a V10 desiel on a 90* angle. What does it need? Right a balance shaft. Who else has a un balanced V10? Thats right Dodge and Ford. Stupid Dodge and Ford.

geoffinbc
10-10-2003, 02:19 PM
How about we throw in some Ford here :P
Ford Mustang 3.8 V6 .. 190HP and a very slow car.

Had a 85 T-bird with a 3.8, and I believe that engine was rated at 120hp or something like that. What a POS, not enough power to haul around a 4000lb car. lol.

are those engines 60* or are they just a 302 with 2 cylinders chopped off?

I think they are 90* and I think they may be based off the V8's

Here is a pic of one. Sure looks 90* to me. Oh and they have balance shafts incase anyone wonders.
http://www.v6power.net/images/gaston/album3/feb4.jpg

Gemmer
10-22-2003, 12:22 AM
well...how bout this. The l36 dyno record was just broken.

The engine has a 4.1 liter short block among other mods Im sure.

What did it pull? 238.8HP and 255.5TQ

Impressive? Yea. Was I expecting more power for all that work? Hell yea!

in its defence, I guess it is around a theoretical 297.5 crankHP (assuming a theoretical 20% drivetrain loss)

but still...I was expecting alot more....

Anonymous
10-22-2003, 12:38 AM
238.8HP and 255.5TQ? Not impressed...

ikessky
10-22-2003, 10:21 AM
238.8HP and 255.5TQ? Not impressed...
No offense to the owner, but I agree with dykz34.

SLEEPER6000
10-22-2003, 10:57 AM
now i don't know about you guys but i love the 3800 series v6, i only have a 3.1L in my car but my mom has a 1996 Pontiac Firebird with the 3800 series motor, yeah it is a 1996 with 230,000 miles on the motor and car, and the damn thing still pulls strong, and nothing absolutely nothing has gone wrong with the motor NOTHING, and it does GREAT on gas, and if there is really something to compain about there please let me know, my e mail is NUESSSPEEDRICE84@AOL.COM

Anonymous
10-22-2003, 12:29 PM
:roll:

ikessky
10-23-2003, 08:56 AM
My in-laws drive a '98-'99 Bonneville that has a 3800 in it. It sure doesn't seem to have that much more power than my 3100. Maybe a little deeper exhaust tone, but hey, I can get that too if I want.

nocutt
10-27-2003, 10:20 PM
Weird thread...I bet if this thread came up in a 90 degree board the feeling will be reversed...well of course it will :evil:
I love the 60 degree engines but not when it comes to adding power...yeah if you want to play with stock power all day then keep your 60 degree...if you want a boost in displacement then that nasty @ss sounding 90 degree Buick V6 is the ticket...hey but not everyone will share my enthusiasm...and for the record most enthusiast that tinker with the 60 degree v6's are Do-it-yourselfers so it is a closer community which unfortunately is probably less than 1% of the populate that drive the cars with this recepient engines...
In a perfect world a 3400 will produce ~207 hp and a 3800 will produce ~231 hp without the technological gimmicks nowadays :roll: , alas the world isn't that perfect...but as far as performance goes and we are still talking small community here...the 3800 hands down, L67 or L36 they both respond well to mods not to say this cannot be accomplished with a 3X00 motor...but to be fair in regards to only performance which is the sole reasons why most boards even exist...stock form, weight for weight, power for power...you add a stick with the same gearing to the individual engines...you might as well forget the 3x000 motor...iron heads, balance shaft or not...this motors where built to haul 3800-4000lbs sedans and coupes around and they do it Oh so well if ask me...
Bottom end is as stout as a Mofo
Head gasket technology wasn't el cheapo (thank goodness)
I mean this suckas are just candidates to be BLOWN 8)

Manitcor
10-30-2003, 09:40 AM
From someone who has had a blown 3x00 engine as well as modded both the 3100 and 3400 I would say they respond just as well to mods as the 3800 if not better.

On my 3100 pre-turbo dynoed 134hp/164tq and with just 4psi turned 171hp/218tq after driving for 5k miles I redid the head gaskets and top end, there was no damage to the cylinders or pistons and the valves were perfectly clean and this was with stock internals. I ended up loosing the engine to a leak in an oil line :evil:

So I replaced the engine with an NA (for now) 3400 and I have to say with the few mods I have its damn strong and runs really well.

The problem that the 3x00 engines suffer is lack of aftermarket, but with the coming of the 3500 and the 3900 as well as slowly increasing support for aftermarket things will only get better for the 60v engines.

GPXSS
10-30-2003, 02:03 PM
ID hafta say that with the introduction of the 3900...

this thread has just been :owned:

gpse3400
10-30-2003, 10:41 PM
And the 3500......

Rhedalert
10-30-2003, 11:01 PM
the 3500 makes the 3800 obsolete. The 3900 makes the 3.8 SC obsolete. Therefore 3800 owners can continue using Pentium 1

Sorin
10-30-2003, 11:09 PM
Yeah, which makes me wonder if GM is going to start replacing the 3.8L with the 3.9L in the cars that come with 3.8s. And whether the 3.9L will replace all 3.8s, or just the supercharged 3.8s, or what. That'd be awesome. They could replace all 3.8s with the 3.9, and then in place of the L67s, they could supercharge the 3.9 :D :sex:

Rhedalert
10-30-2003, 11:18 PM
no, we must keep 3.8's cause the 400 lb heads are good for NAWWWWWWWZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!! And BOOOOOSSSSSSTTTTTTTTT!1!!!!!1111 And no engine is worthy of anything if it isnt Blown, right?

nocutt
10-31-2003, 02:55 AM
I don't see GM replacing the 3800 any time soon...besides it still doesn't matter...the LC2 was cancelled what? Almost 15 years ago?!?!...and the aftermarket blew out off proportion when that happened. The 3100, 3400, 3500 and 3900 are nice platforms but I still cannot envision the community been bigger than the 3.8/3800...
As far as which is better...no point, whatever they were meant to do;they do well...the point to me is when we are talking aftermarket...hands down 3.8/3800...
GM is trying so hard now to reinvent themselves...croonies :twisted: ...it is too late, IMHO. Stick to a program and stand by it...look at what FOR....D did with most of their 4 and 8 cylinder programs especially of late...now it is freaking 2.2 ecotec...which they should have done several years ago...
Anywayz what was the thread for again :wink:

Anonymous
10-31-2003, 04:34 AM
no, we must keep 3.8's cause the 400 lb heads are good for NAWWWWWWWZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!! And BOOOOOSSSSSSTTTTTTTTT!1!!!!!1111 And no engine is worthy of anything if it isnt Blown, right?

I forget who's pic this is.. but its to good use.
http://photo.starblvd.net/~grandprix93gtp/4-1-2.jpg?i=1070461405&pw=*56EF3FA20928

GPXSS
10-31-2003, 08:57 AM
I don't see GM replacing the 3800 any time soon...besides it still doesn't matter...the LC2 was cancelled what? Almost 15 years ago?!?!...and the aftermarket blew out off proportion when that happened. The 3100, 3400, 3500 and 3900 are nice platforms but I still cannot envision the community been bigger than the 3.8/3800...
As far as which is better...no point, whatever they were meant to do;they do well...the point to me is when we are talking aftermarket...hands down 3.8/3800...


wtf is an LC2?

Why is the 3800 community so large? ClubGP. Most people there dont give a flying poo about any of these engines, they just want to buy stupid shit for $100 to be a part of a community. If the GP engine changes, it will instantly get aftermarket... so you cannot judge the popularity just because its a 3800.

Sorin
10-31-2003, 12:09 PM
And maybe I misuderstand the post, but GM sure as heck won't keep the 3800 around just because it has a large community. Since when has GM given a genuine shit about its non-smallblock and/or FWD enthusiast communities?

Anonymous
10-31-2003, 03:28 PM
If GM keeps the 3800 around maybe its because its cheaper and easier to make than a more advanced 60* engine. Iron heads, slap on a supercharger and they got 260HP, 14 second car.

geoffinbc
10-31-2003, 09:53 PM
The 3800 is done and so is the 4300. Small trucks are getting the Atlas engines and cars will get the 660's. The W bodies are suposed to goto RWD by 2006 from what I have been hearing. In 2 years the 3800 and 4300 will most likely be extinct.

gpse3400
10-31-2003, 09:53 PM
If GM keeps the 3800 around maybe its because its cheaper and easier to make than a more advanced 60* engine. Iron heads, slap on a supercharger and they got 260HP, 14 second car.


How is it cheaper and easier to make powerful? If GM decided to install a forced induction apparatus to the 60 deg complete with comparable hardware it would give you the better results Ex.(G6 3.5S/C with 285 HP), simply for the fact its just less stuff the turn and better heads. Hell we even know now the GEN1/2 bottom end can support 400 HP+. As far as advancement...Take a look at those 3800 cylinder heads. I haven't seen anything so crude like that thrown on a car since the model T. At least the 60 degs excuse on power problems is the Exhaust and running too rich at WOT in some or all applications. GM is investing in the 60 deg..Let's revel in it. Keep the 3800 in the Buicks if it must stay, since it's their monstrosity...but GM won't anyways....

gpse3400
10-31-2003, 09:55 PM
wtf is an LC2?



Liquid Crystal.....2

gpse3400
10-31-2003, 10:20 PM
The 3800 is done and so is the 4300. Small trucks are getting the Atlas engines and cars will get the 660's. The W bodies are suposed to goto RWD by 2006 from what I have been hearing. In 2 years the 3800 and 4300 will most likely be extinct.

I swear if I had to chose a 90 deg it would be the 4.3. At least it's a tough truck engine. Way, way better crankshaft design that 3800 as well as far as 90 degs go. And if you wanted more power all you'd have to do is steal parts from your neighbors worked IROC 350.

Cliff8928
11-01-2003, 12:56 AM
The 3800 is done and so is the 4300. Small trucks are getting the Atlas engines and cars will get the 660's. The W bodies are suposed to goto RWD by 2006 from what I have been hearing. In 2 years the 3800 and 4300 will most likely be extinct.

I've only been counting the days for the 4.3 to be buried! every time i drive mine, I end up curising at it (how the heck can something with so little power get such BAD fuel economy)... not to meniton that it's usually a pain to work on...

I knew the 3800 being axed was inevitable... (aswell as the 2.4 before it went!)

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740
96 JimmySLT

gpse3400
11-01-2003, 01:57 AM
I've only been counting the days for the 4.3 to be buried! every time i drive mine, I end up curising at it (how the heck can something with so little power get such BAD fuel economy)... not to meniton that it's usually a pain to work on...

I knew the 3800 being axed was inevitable... (aswell as the 2.4 before it went!)

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740
96 JimmySLT

Well I'd say any engine mated to a +or- 2 ton range chassis, is not going to get any good economy...As far as maintenance...nothing has been super straight foward without some intricasies to work on for the past 2 decades....Only a few cars I can think of that are straight foward...I know that doing a tune up on my Camaro took a couple of days...broke 2 exhaust manifold studs...had to pull the passenger side manifold to fix.

nocutt
11-01-2003, 02:59 AM
I don't see GM replacing the 3800 any time soon...besides it still doesn't matter...the LC2 was cancelled what? Almost 15 years ago?!?!...and the aftermarket blew out off proportion when that happened. The 3100, 3400, 3500 and 3900 are nice platforms but I still cannot envision the community been bigger than the 3.8/3800...
As far as which is better...no point, whatever they were meant to do;they do well...the point to me is when we are talking aftermarket...hands down 3.8/3800...


wtf is an LC2?

Why is the 3800 community so large? ClubGP. Most people there dont give a flying poo about any of these engines, they just want to buy stupid shit for $100 to be a part of a community. If the GP engine changes, it will instantly get aftermarket... so you cannot judge the popularity just because its a 3800.

LC2 is the RPO for the GN/TA engine...
Clubgp.com? No club fiero.com...lol! The fiero guys have been using and modding the engines even before the first xhaust or intake mod arrived on the market for the w-body...unfortunately or maybe it is fortunate, clubgp created the biggest aftermarket for the 3800...
Alas my point is moot...
The beretta engine changed...I don't see or maybe better...I didn't see the aftermarket? There is more to it than that...Ultimately it is either a vendor, or manufacturer that will agree to create the aftermarket for a recepient engine or the community itself...but money has to change hands one way or the other...Now that trend or ideology can grow depends; either forward or backwards...a good example *cough*coughclubgp*cough*...it grew exponentially however I digress...the same thing that created its aftermaket will be it own unraveling...$$$ creates snobs...yes I said it!!
I care less if GM keeps the 3800 in its stable...I was at sema '00 this was where I first saw the 3500-turbo. There were mumbles and talks about the 3800 demise, while a 60* was going to take over...it is 2004 right about anywayz...those egocentric *%))^& created the 3800S3! It is obvious GM is looking for a niche with the younger crowd...believe me they won't find it...well not yet at least and despite what a lot might think the 3800 or 3x00 is a large community however not those modding it!
I have my popcorn...I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the "holy grail" this antiquated 'suits' running GM, what do they care...we are here "ASSUMING" when most of America's youth are buying the hype Hp/L rules!! Variable Valve timing etc. etc...at the end of the day, we are still left with the same choices..."do you rob peter to pay paul or is it the other way round :roll:
Happy halloween guys...

Anonymous
11-01-2003, 03:20 AM
hehe nice way of putting it. To be honest, I don't have a problem with the 3800SC and if I could afford a GTP and the insurance that goes along with the newer cars- I'd probably go for it. But as you said, the niche with the younger croud doesn't work. They can only afford old Hondas, j-bodies and such.. stuff under $10G (Canadian $$ anyways). I don't know how many of those import obsessed freaks even know a damn thing about what GM has to offer, and many with their fancy paintjob/ cold air intake Honda would probably take a GTP for being a slow granny car..
I guess I'm going off topic here, cause I'm not really talking abut the 60*s but GM's newer bigger cars... its late, I'm tired so don't bother flaming at me. :eek7:

Rhedalert
11-01-2003, 10:14 PM
Even though Corporate GM is only looking at the bottom line ($$$$$) at least they're letting GM powertrain engineers have their fun. For ex I dont think most car buyers care if their V6 has roller rockers or not, but it's done! I'm glad that they're concentrating on refining the 60v6 rather than find a bigger blower for the existing 3.8

brian89gp
11-12-2003, 05:14 PM
The 3.8/3800 is popular because it was blown from the factory. Go back in time and take the turbo off the GN, and the M62 and M90 off the 3800 family, where would it be now? If you think about it it is the factory boosted cars that get the aftermarket, then the respective NA engines of the same family follow.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in about reliability for a sec. My dad recently inherited a 90 Lumina APV van, 3.1L TBI iron head. At 220k miles it started to miss horribly which is when I changed out the ORIGINAL spark plugs. Thats right, 220k with nothing but oil. Its still running strong with 240k right now.

jweir22
11-12-2003, 10:02 PM
The only 3.8 i liked was in the 86 Grand National it was 13.9 Quater mile right off the line.

nocutt
11-13-2003, 12:10 AM
The 3.8/3800 is popular because it was blown from the factory. Go back in time and take the turbo off the GN, and the M62 and M90 off the 3800 family, where would it be now? If you think about it it is the factory boosted cars that get the aftermarket, then the respective NA engines of the same family follow.



Brian that is very subjective...that is like saying remove the V-tec technology from honda's fleets where would honda be? As a matter of fact where would Toyota be etc, etc? Sorry I don't buy that!! Removing this power adders aforementioned is like removing a limb from one's body...they came like that from the show floor and therefore are no different than the accessories...I do however agree that the counterpart NA cars within that given family tends to suffer...however not from an individual's perspective!?!
231ci of displacement and then couple this with FI? You are definately right!! Recipe for some serious potential...This is the perfect adage for the "thing you hate to love"...Despite ppls feelings, 90% will take this engine, if it were to be offered free of charge they wouldn't say though :D

Anonymous
11-13-2003, 04:22 AM
...Despite ppls feelings, 90% will take this engine, if it were to be offered free of charge they wouldn't say though :D

Admit it everybody.. if it was free you'd take it with a smile. :shady:

I'd take it over my 2.8 anyday.. cause I'd like more power (isn't that what its all about in the end?)

robby1870
11-13-2003, 10:14 AM
Id take it and see how much damage a maul could do to it.

ikessky
11-13-2003, 11:16 AM
I would have taken it until I heard about the new engines that GM is putting out.

Oh who am I kidding. I would take one and urinate on it! :nutkick:

11-13-2003, 03:02 PM
I am a proud owner of a 3800 series 2 engine

All of you who seem to hate the 3800, well 3800 owners have a different mindset than owners of the inferior 3400, and 3100 have..

The thing is, you guys think that horsepower is the biggest most important thing, and since the 3800 only puts out 205hp N/A, it must be garbage!

Well in the real world, the bigger concern is TORQUE, of which the 3800 FAR surpasses the 3100, and even the ever so precious 3400. It is known to almost every auto mechanic that the 3800 is also one of the most reliable engines in the world. We also have better power curve than the 3400, and we get most of our torque at lower rpms, which means there is not much need for red lining the engine which then equals LONGER ENGINE LIFE. The 3800 is also much more durable than the 3400, because we used to own a 96 GTP with the 3.4L and the engine in it blew. I drive our 3800 in the ground everyday i drive it, for over a year now and it runs just like it did the day it was purchased. How many of you would put a 3400 into a Bonneville because it produces more power than a naturally aspirated 3.8 which is designed to produce TORQUE? I know i sure as hell never would because it would be put through alot of stress due to the added weight.

GM designed the 3400 to perform at high rpms, on a "LIGHT" (so to speak) car. The 3800 is designed to haul LUXURY sedans around, and be able to perform very well.

A lumina is FAR lighter than a Bonneville, or even a 3800 GTP. That is what GM was thinking each time the redesigned the 3800, and since you seem to think that the 3800 is abolished, then why is there a Series III variant that will be produced in the 2004 Gran Prix? Get your facts straight.

So next time you rant and rave about an engine because it has iron heads, or because its "BEING ABOLISHED", why don't you try getting your facts straight??
Check out www.bonnevilleclub.com and see a bit of the massive spectrum of mods that can be done to the 3800

Have fun with your lowsy 3.4's

With love, from Deutchland

nocutt
11-13-2003, 03:21 PM
OH oh... :321:
'We are all looking for the same thing at the end'...I think that is the best way to put it and to add, FREE YOUR MIND...lol!

Rhedalert
11-13-2003, 03:23 PM
AHAHAHA!!! Oh yeah, nothing beats that monsterous harmonic balancer that this "fine tuned" top of the line engine needs. Series 3-this! Sorry, but compare the engines when they have the same displacement, and see which comes out ahead in HP and torque. Though maybe I'm going a little overboard, since the 3900 n/a makes the same horsepower and a lil shy of torque compared to the 3800 supercharged. What ever will I do....

Rhedalert
11-13-2003, 03:23 PM
And if someone gave me a 3800 for free, straight to ebay! I can get more for my $

11-13-2003, 03:37 PM
Oh, and another note...

Notice how the fastest known Gran Prix in the world is powered by a 3800???

What is the fastest known Regal GS in N.A. powered by?
You guessed it.. The 3800

Check out www.intense-racing.com and check out the member cars, get a feel for the 10.9 second GTP....

Or maybe a 11.8 SSEi

Then theres also Scott Cooks 10.6 second run in a Gran Prix (3800)

I haven't found to many aftermarket dealers for the 3100 or 3400 on here, although there is quite a bit for the 3800 like intense, ADTR, Summit, Domestic Performance, and those are just off the top of my head.

If the 3800 is so bad, why would GM ever use it in the Regal, GN, Bonneville, Gran Prix, Impala, LeSabre, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Olds 88, Olds 98, Park Avenue, Firebird, Camaro, and Cutlass??
Thats 14 different applications that i thought of in less than a minute! I know there is MANY other cars that the 3800 was put into. Do you really think GM would put the same engine in so many cars if it was as bad as you make it seem to be?? I think we can safely assume GM would of put the best engine they had (for the application) in the specific vehicle.

I don't think a 3400 could pull a Park Avenue around for long, do you?

Can you honestly say a 3400 can be pushed to 600hp like the 3800 has been pushed to by the Intense Racing team? I don't think so
Horsepower isn't something i care to much about though, I am a fan of TORQUE, and i'm proud of owning plenty of that.

Matt

11-13-2003, 03:42 PM
So to be an obnoxious idiot with no other things left to argue (like Rhedalert), i say : HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA just like that fool did :grin: :grin: :grin: 8) :o :o :twisted: :wink:

11-13-2003, 03:44 PM
Oh, and if i was given a 3400, i wouldn't bring it to ebay, no way. It would never sell, i'd just give it to an auto wrecker, not a salvager, a WRECKER, and yes, i would GIVE it to them, maybe even pay them to take it. (I might need to)


Rhedalert Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:23 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AHAHAHA!!!

robby1870
11-13-2003, 03:47 PM
Oh, and another note...

Notice how the fastest known Gran Prix in the world is powered by a 3800???

What is the fastest known Regal GS in N.A. powered by?
You guessed it.. The 3800

Check out www.intense-racing.com and check out the member cars, get a feel for the 10.9 second GTP....

Or maybe a 11.8 SSEi

Then theres also Scott Cooks 10.6 second run in a Gran Prix (3800)

I haven't found to many aftermarket dealers for the 3100 or 3400 on here, although there is quite a bit for the 3800 like intense, ADTR, Summit, Domestic Performance, and those are just off the top of my head.

If the 3800 is so bad, why would GM ever use it in the Regal, GN, Bonneville, Gran Prix, Impala, LeSabre, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Olds 88, Olds 98, Park Avenue, Firebird, Camaro, and Cutlass??
Thats 14 different applications that i thought of in less than a minute! I know there is MANY other cars that the 3800 was put into. Do you really think GM would put the same engine in so many cars if it was as bad as you make it seem to be?? I think we can safely assume GM would of put the best engine they had (for the application) in the specific vehicle.

I don't think a 3400 could pull a Park Avenue around for long, do you?

Can you honestly say a 3400 can be pushed to 600hp like the 3800 has been pushed to by the Intense Racing team? I don't think so
Horsepower isn't something i care to much about though, I am a fan of TORQUE, and i'm proud of owning plenty of that.

Matt

I read 3 lines and realized all you wrote was just "blah blah blah blah blah......etc". WHO CARES if they 3800 is the fastest in whatever........its a big chunk of overused iron

11-13-2003, 03:54 PM
Same can be said for the 3400, except its just an underpowered wood burner :D :D :D

SappySE107
11-13-2003, 03:58 PM
So they put it in heavier cars cause it has the torque to tow them around. Its called being smart. Doesnt mean the 3800 is great by any means. How many cars had the 2.0, 2.2, 2.5 pushrods? Are those great motors too? Can a 3400 be pushed to 600 hp...you dont know so stop assuming either way. Aftermarket support is there because GP owners are sheep and will pay insane prices for parts for their iron head trash. GM put a supercharger on it, so people were automatically going to jump on it. True, the TGP has boost but its production numbers were severely limited.

3400s sell on ebay, stop being a moron.

How many 3400s catch on fire? How many 3800 posts have I seen where an engine bay fire is involved. W00T!!! L67 Krispies!

SappySE107
11-13-2003, 03:59 PM
Check out the 3500. Displacement being = the 3800 will lose.

Anonymous
11-13-2003, 04:00 PM
The 3800 is also much more durable than the 3400, because we used to own a 96 GTP with the 3.4L and the engine in it blew.

Umm... the 3.4 you are speaking of is a DOHC engine, not a pushrod (the 3.4DOHC have their own issues but we woun't get into that). No 3400 was ever in a GTP, or any stock w-body for that matter. Totally different engine we're talking here.



A lumina is FAR lighter than a Bonneville, or even a 3800 GTP.
According to edmunds.com the 2003 GTP Curb Weight: 3583 lbs.
That is not much difference from any Lumina. Additional weight would be from the 3800 engine



Have fun with your lowsy 3.4's

With love, from Deutchland

Go row you're Bonny boat out to sea, and when you get there don't forget to chuck that anchor in the water so you don't sink.
(You don't know what you're talking about.)
:repost:

11-13-2003, 04:15 PM
What are you smoking?? :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass:

How about this: Find me some blown 3800's, and we'll compare how many blown 3800's there are to how many blown 3400's there are

Good luck, because i have never seen a single blown 3800

Did you know theres a 3.0 engine that makes more power then your 3.4? :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick:

Oh and guess who sold it? FORD although it was built by Yamaha
220HP :nutkick: :nutkick:
Thats 5 hp more then the 3.4 from a 3.0!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :hitit: :nutkick:

ikessky
11-13-2003, 04:18 PM
If GM wanted to stick a 3800 in all their larger vehicles, why does almost every minivan I've looked at have a 3400 engine? Minivans are not performance vehicles, but they are bigger and heavier than most cars.

BTW, the Grand National had a turbo charged 3.8L. It was RWD. It did not have a 3800 which is FWD.

robby1870
11-13-2003, 04:25 PM
Are we talking about Fords?? Didnt think so. Oh, and it doesnt matter how much power some other motor makes, all we care about is that the 3800 is overused and low-tech. Yeah, you can say a 3x00 is low tech too, but, at least it has aluminum heads, and is internally balanced, which means it doesnt have a spare tire for a crank pulley. Im glad you think 3800s are gods gift to motors, maybe you'll keep wasting your money on overpriced parts. Your comparision about Ford's....err, I mean Yamaha's motor is like saying an LS1 is worthless compared to a NASCAR V8. I hope you waste your money and get someone else to waste their time modifying your 3800. I would rather spend my own time building my OWN motor, and have something I can be proud of. Money will make anything fast, but building a motor yourself is priceless. Oh, and could you use more smilies next post?

Anonymous
11-13-2003, 04:42 PM
Did you know theres a 3.0 engine that makes more power then your 3.4? :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick:

Oh and guess who sold it? FORD although it was built by Yamaha
220HP :nutkick: :nutkick:
Thats 5 hp more then the 3.4 from a 3.0!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :hitit: :nutkick:

Oh, and did you know theres a 3.5L engine that has more power than your 3800 or H.O Yamaha engine? Hows 285HP n/a sound? Made by Nissan and considered the best V6 in the world.. so whats you f'n point??

:owned: :owned: :owned:

Anonymous
11-13-2003, 05:06 PM
I see we've attracted the attention of a troll. :roll:

bszopi
11-13-2003, 05:11 PM
I just love it whenever we get into conversations like this (similar to the LSD discussion on GMF), we always get someone who likes to talk trash and ALWAYS bring up Intense. Why is that? Oh, that's right... cause you guys like wasting your money. Intense is a flippin' rip-off if you ask me.

SappySE107
11-13-2003, 05:15 PM
Yeah, he wants to talk about the DOHC, he can go to the DOHC section. Ill school his sorry ass with DOHC talk though. As for the 3400, how about the 3500...or dont you wanna talk about that cause it has better internals and will be destroying the 3800s records. Or we can just use a 3900, take away any displacement advantange...and laugh all the way to the finish line. hahaha, so sad.

If you havent seen a single blown 3800, you aren't looking hard enough. Ive read about a few, and I dont even give a fuck about 3800s to LOOK for those types of posts. Look at the numbers though, 60V6 engines are in MORE vehicles than 3800s. 3100 and 3400 vehicles = more than 3800. They are also in cheaper cars, driven by younger owners. You must think us fools for your discussion is attempting to ignore so many variables.

SappySE107
11-13-2003, 05:18 PM
If you are in germany, you can send me some beer! mmmm beer:)

Cliff8928
11-13-2003, 06:10 PM
No 3400 was ever in a GTP, or any stock w-body for that matter. Totally different engine we're talking here.

Well, the new Monte Carlo and Impala have 3400s in base form..


Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

nocutt
11-13-2003, 11:48 PM
Free your mind guys...
danpuzak,
Don't bring Intense into this :evil: I have seen more blown 3x00 than 3800! Why? simple there are more of the 3x00 engines...lol! Not the point though...
The thread clearly states 3800 vs 3400/3500 why add 3.9? too much bias on this thread, here I was thinking I could get schooled but it seems to be the same ...ish "angle of separation" this or "HP/L". To be serious an no BSing, do you actually know why the 3800 never came in a stick?...I mean ever, ever? Yep it is a monster...TQ monster!! I don't care about numbers...it convolutes the issue...you see how numbers got Madza into trouble...it is so easy to fabricate? Few ppl in here might not have driven a (off topic again) 3.4 DOHC with a stick vs one with an auto...the difference is like night and day, I am trying to be objective here...not subjective like the most of you!!...so it is a 60 degree board...so? You just cannot afford to be blind? I love the 3x00 but I decided that to maximize the gains, why not go bigger (considering there was/is no aftermarket support)...folks keep on talking about the ability of the 3x00 to get 400hp..oh I don't doubt that...and don't blame it on aftermarket support or lack there of...the 60 degree community has the most creative folks on an individual basis, yet I have not seen the niche grow in almost 9 years...it seems to be the same ppl, the same faces...however the ideology has changed very much...to debacle the 3800...opinions are very interesting!! all it takes is for the blind, deaf and dumb to listen...and they follow! Look at what is happening in that CLUB :cry:

bszopi
11-14-2003, 12:21 AM
When the thread was started, the 3900 was not a go. Therefore, that is why it was not included in the discussion. I will be more than happy to add it if you would like though. Something I was thinking about earlier also... Dan insisted on bringing up the Intense drag team and their 10-sec runs. What he didn't mention is that these guys are using wheelie bars to help keep the meat to the pavement. I can think of a 3.1L (yeah, the old one) that could probably easily be in the 10s if traction were not an issue. So why bring crap like that up? This is something I do NOT know, but are any of those 10-11 sec cars daily drivers? Be something interesting to know since it was brought into the discussion...

nocutt
11-14-2003, 12:38 AM
Then we would have to bring the new 4.1 stroker...lol jusk joking :wink:
Ben besides the intense turbo, the rest are daily drivers, not that I really care...I still don't see the point to add "daily driver"...that is another can of worms! Curtis doesn't drive his daily (well I ASSume you were refering to him above...lol!) I am sure it is capable, but highly impropable...too many compromises, too much to loose?!?
I think the higher you go in power, the more displacements becomes a factor...especially on pushrod motors. I don't know anything about the 3.9, other than folks talking about it...will it be the newest marvel? maybe...maybe not! GM is trying so had to reinvent themselves...maybe this will be a winner, like the 3800 was/is?!? I however won't hold my breath :roll:

Rhedalert
11-14-2003, 12:41 AM
Oh, and another note...

Notice how the fastest known Gran Prix in the world is powered by a 3800???

What is the fastest known Regal GS in N.A. powered by?
You guessed it.. The 3800

Check out www.intense-racing.com and check out the member cars, get a feel for the 10.9 second GTP....

Or maybe a 11.8 SSEi

Then theres also Scott Cooks 10.6 second run in a Gran Prix (3800)

I haven't found to many aftermarket dealers for the 3100 or 3400 on here, although there is quite a bit for the 3800 like intense, ADTR, Summit, Domestic Performance, and those are just off the top of my head.

If the 3800 is so bad, why would GM ever use it in the Regal, GN, Bonneville, Gran Prix, Impala, LeSabre, Lumina, Monte Carlo, Olds 88, Olds 98, Park Avenue, Firebird, Camaro, and Cutlass??
Thats 14 different applications that i thought of in less than a minute! I know there is MANY other cars that the 3800 was put into. Do you really think GM would put the same engine in so many cars if it was as bad as you make it seem to be?? I think we can safely assume GM would of put the best engine they had (for the application) in the specific vehicle.

I don't think a 3400 could pull a Park Avenue around for long, do you?

Can you honestly say a 3400 can be pushed to 600hp like the 3800 has been pushed to by the Intense Racing team? I don't think so
Horsepower isn't something i care to much about though, I am a fan of TORQUE, and i'm proud of owning plenty of that.

Matt

I was just wondering how it feels to spend all that time on the computer writing a waste of a post, yet I and most others here read maybe 1% of it. Pound for pound, your heavy, archaic, nail-sized valved, crankshaft snapping split-pin design ultra long skirted, plastic manifold 3800 will fall short. And don't even pretend to have an engine oh-so the same as what's in the Grand National

SappySE107
11-14-2003, 12:42 AM
The camaro 3800 came in a stick. It has nothing to do with where the engines make torque, or how much. The cars the 3800s are in never got a manual option, for any engine that they came with when the 3800 was offered (FWD). If there is one let me know. The reason the newer cars with 3800s dont have sticks is simple...they didnt sell. Look how many 5 speed 3.4 DOHC engines there are. This isn't a DOHC debate, but I will point out that their 5 speed sales were small, and stopped in 93 for the W bodies. The smaller cars still have 5 speeds because younger people own them, or people who want gas milage with a 4 cylinder engine.

The 3500 may be able to be bored to 3.9 liters...so as far as I know, it still counts for a worked over 3500 engine.

R/S ratio, angle, piston speed, crank design...all those are important for an engine. The only thing the 3800 has for it that I would ever remotely care about are its iron heads. That would be for extreme boost. For efficiency, I would like to know how the 3800 fares NA vs a 3400 or 3500. It takes a form of boost to wake up the 3800 (or a shitload of money, cause I know 1 person is in the 13s with theirs, though I dunno what else was done to the car in terms of weight reduction). Track times aren't engine comparisons, they are gearing/ power to weight ratios. It is a discussion of engine theory for the most part on our end because no one around here has 10,000 bucks to dump into research and development. What takes a large company with a large following to do in 1 year would take is many years...which is where we are getting to now. Each passing year we do more collectively than the 3800 community. They use their wallets, we use our minds. Exceptions of course, someone has to develop their parts.

geoffinbc
11-14-2003, 01:14 PM
What are you smoking?? :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass: :dumbass:

How about this: Find me some blown 3800's, and we'll compare how many blown 3800's there are to how many blown 3400's there are

Good luck, because i have never seen a single blown 3800

Did you know theres a 3.0 engine that makes more power then your 3.4? :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick:

Oh and guess who sold it? FORD although it was built by Yamaha
220HP :nutkick: :nutkick:
Thats 5 hp more then the 3.4 from a 3.0!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :hitit: :nutkick:

Did you know GM made a freakin 2.3L with 190hp and 180 torque? Thats more or about the same as 3400's aswell. Who cares tere is a difference between all out performance, reliability and new emissions standards. You dont know shit.

Do you even know what the 3800 series III is all about? Nothing besides increased boost and electronic throttle control. But arent all GM cars getting electronic throttle control? Yea thats what I thought

The only thing I want of a 3800 is the factory supercharger which I would like to create a plate to fit the lower half of my 3.4L SFI intake and put my good old TBI on top of the supercharger. MMM I love custom mods.

GPXSS
11-14-2003, 04:42 PM
like i said earlier.. with the release of the 3900, this thread is pointless.. there is nothing the 3800 has or will ever have to have any advantage over the 3900.

nocutt
11-15-2003, 12:25 AM
Ok folks after crunching some numbers in the spirit of 'gearheadness' and bench racing...do not take it out of context :D

where Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/ 5252


therefore TQ = ( HP x 5252)/RPM

I plotted numbers for 3800SC (1), 3800NA (2), 3900 (3), 3500 (4)
here goes:
(1). 240hp @ 5200 RPM= 242.4 lb/ft
(2). 205hp @ 5200 RPM= 207.0 lb/ft
(3). 240hp @ 5900 RPM= 213.6 lb/ft
(4). 200hp @ 5400 RPM= 194.5 lb/ft

Excluding all the technological cluters, if this cars were all geared the same (sticks to take better advantage of drivetrain loss and torque multiplication) and the only other factor been weight of the powertrain, (to make this more interesting this engines are all in the same car) which engine will dominate the quarter mile? (1320 only; no other circuit tracks because we all know which one will be the most fun to drive 8) )
IMO it will be a close race especially with (1) & (2)...advancement in technology or not...the low end grunt of the 3800SC will make it pull out of the hole with some serious 60', but it seems to me that the 3900 would be a screamer at the top end, however with about only 214ft/lb at its Peak torque of 5900RPM it will be very debatable since the 3800SC has more area under the curve...so it would have covered a lot of ground before it would have started to run out of steam...the 3900 can hold each gear a little longer though...???

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 01:21 AM
you are comparing 3800SC vs NA...this discussion is about the NA 3800, as in the engine itself, not the supercharger on top of it.

nocutt
11-15-2003, 01:39 AM
you are comparing 3800SC vs NA...this discussion is about the NA 3800, as in the engine itself, not the supercharger on top of it.

Boooooo! :wink: Getting more bias aren't we? I thought it is "run what you brung"...the 3800SC comes of the show room with the SC...you take the SC off..we are talking about an engine with almost 60%-75% volumetric efficiency :cry: ...If the L67 cannot be used then we are at a stalemate...you guys create so much hullaballob about old technology, but quickly draw a line...you don't see me saying the 3900 has advantages in the Cam design, head design, displacement, Engine management software do you? I guess there ain't no winning...

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 02:07 AM
no, this isnt the run what you brung thread, this is an engine discussion.

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 02:09 AM
engine management has nothing to do with it., cause you can run whatever computer on either, though you would lose DOD. It takes a SC to make the 3800 even worth talking about doesn't it.

Now, you can compare the L67 with its internals and whatnot...but the boost is a power added, just like putting a turbo on a 3500. I mean, this isn't limited to what GM put out because thats a lame discussion about what GM did...boring.

What about porting the 3800 heads, what kind of flow numbers can you get from it. What about combustion chamber design? There is plenty to discuss, but don't think this is NA vs SC.

Why is GM scrapping the 3800 and building up its 60V6 lineup?

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 02:20 AM
Ok, and I have to bring up something else. How can you say "under the curve" when you dont know the powerband of the 3500/3900. Their curve may be better than the 3800. I thought I read something about VVT for the 3900. Your numbers are for 1 RPM point.

nocutt
11-15-2003, 03:29 AM
Ok, and I have to bring up something else. How can you say "under the curve" when you dont know the powerband of the 3500/3900. Their curve may be better than the 3800. I thought I read something about VVT for the 3900. Your numbers are for 1 RPM point.

Reread my post...don't take what I posted out off context...what I posted was bench racing...
My point exactly? None...if no one has seen the power band of the 3900...then guess what? There is still no point talking about it is there? As far as performance is concerned! Now if we are talking about the 'crap' (use loosely) that sells cars...then the 3900 will beat the 3800 hands down...honestly though you really don't need to see the "powerband of the 3900" to draw and educated guess..if any one, you or brad can be very close :wink: No matter what, it will be a peaky curve look at the specs "Provided".
Engine management has a lot to do with it...a lot!! I will have loved to proove that but I know you really don't care...you know moot point!?!? Everyone has their own notion, ideology and realm for performance...this is why you have 'right extremist' who believe in solemnly Natural Aspirated power and then you have at the other extreme hardcore Unatural aspirated power (insert "angle of separation" here too)...it becomes very mushy in the middle...which is exactly were I am...GM released the L67 from the factory with an SC and therefore...it isn't a power adder, it is part of the engine just like an accessory. I can sit here all day and try to reiterate but it is obvious I will be talking to the hand.
Yes if we are discussing the engine and it "revolutionary" technology hands down the 3800 either of 'em is no match...but you cannot use peformance in the same breath, when it comes down to brute power...the 3800SC takes the cake...archaic or not...several threads and I didn't understand the point? Now I do...I guess it is a case of something old getting replaced with something new...big deal! What will replace the 3900?


What about porting the 3800 heads, what kind of flow numbers can you get from it. What about combustion chamber design? There is plenty to discuss, but don't think this is NA vs SC.

Do you really care about those flow numbers Ben? Yes there is plenty to discuss, but I get the point if we are discussing "technological marvel"...those things don't phase me...I mean if we are talking DOHC then I see what is there to argue over...but pushrod This is like LS6 owners acting all high and mighty because of the new stuff over the LS1 :roll:


Why is GM scrapping the 3800 and building up its 60V6 lineup?
Because GM loves money and we are all pawns..." If you build it they will come" :D

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 01:00 PM
How can you say the 3900 will be peaky? I think you are trying to read my posts wrong or something, cause you reply to them as if I just kicked you in the nuts. What we know about the 3500 and 3900 are the internals, and the design. We know it uses the same heads as the 3400. Why the fuck would I ask about 3800 flow numbers if I didnt care? You are the one talking about the 3800 and how it rocks, not me...I dont research 3800 specs, flow numbers, or even dyno charts. That is your responsibility in this discussion, if you choose to accept.

Computer matters, sure, I tune them...I think I know all about computers influence on the engine. However, you make it seem as if that has something to do with the engines. I can take an L67 and run it off OBD1, or take a 2.8 and run it OBD2 (well I cant personally, but it can be done). Im just taking away that variable cause the computer is not the engine.

Maybe someone else wants to talk about the L67, its SC, and how its obviously not a power adder cause GM put a supercharger on an NA engine and released it. I dont comprehend how a supercharger is magically not a poweradder since GM slapped it on there...but ok.

The only thing the 3800 ever had for it was displacement and iron heads for boost. Thats my view.

nocutt
11-15-2003, 05:15 PM
How can you say the 3900 will be peaky? I think you are trying to read my posts wrong or something, cause you reply to them as if I just kicked you in the nuts.

Ben trust me...I am far from that...this is a BB...whatever you say is your opinion even though you back it up with facts...you post this in a 90 degree V6 board any for that matter, you will still be challenged by skeptics! Anyways look at the specs again, where is the 3900 making its PK torque? Hope it sheds some light on some of the characteristics of this engine...will it be peaky? IMO it might be, but it sure won't be flat!...but that is why the board exist...I don't have to swallow what you say nor do you as long as we both remain civilzed as opposed to a full page of non-qualitative info...


What we know about the 3500 and 3900 are the internals, and the design. We know it uses the same heads as the 3400. Why the fuck would I ask about 3800 flow numbers if I didnt care? You are the one talking about the 3800 and how it rocks, not me

Like I have said in the past and I will always say...I am a fanatic to GM V6's 60 or 90...I don't ever get caught with the BS and crap...I am not a an opponent or a proponent...if I were challenging the stats, then I will post something that matters...I am looking at this objectively...nothing more...I have accepted the engines is ways "advanced" than either 3800 but we are still comparing apples to oranges when we are talking power or even engine as a whole for that matter... anywayz if you cannot accept the L67 has NO power adder then you just don't, it is your perogative...


..I dont research 3800 specs, flow numbers, or even dyno charts. That is your responsibility in this discussion, if you choose to accept.

Neither do I...it isn't my responsibility as long as the 3900 has none...I needed to understand the rest of the hullabaloob...I did and have accepted, however we seem not to see eye to eye on that one issue :roll:




Maybe someone else wants to talk about the L67, its SC, and how its obviously not a power adder cause GM put a supercharger on an NA engine and released it. I dont comprehend how a supercharger is magically not a poweradder since GM slapped it on there...but ok.

LOL! Well Ok Ben...you and I know it is far from that...hey but that is OK too...The term power adder is very subjective...lets just say "Stock" from the factory...in my eyes, power adder refers to FI been added after the fact at least within the realms of this discussion.... :D


The only thing the 3800 ever had for it was displacement and iron heads for boost. Thats my view.

The only thing the Grand National had was it's displacement, iron heads and boost...what is your point!?!? Now that will be a good comparison, but I already know what will be the answer...

Why does this topic exist 3x00 vs 3800? is it inferiority complex or State of the art technology?

SappySE107
11-15-2003, 05:32 PM
its existed for a long time, when the L67 became a popular swap because the 60V6 had no aftermarket or "potential" to people. Im a DOHC person now, so a discussion with the 3.6 DOHC or 3.4 DOHC would interest me a heck of a lot more than the 3500 or 3900. Im more interested in the new pushrods though over the 3400 and older due to the internals changing.

bszopi
11-15-2003, 08:19 PM
This is from the GM Press Release for the 3900....


The two new technologies combine to give the 3900 V-6 high specific output and torque across a broad operating range, along with a lusty dose of torque that peaks at a low, satisfying engine speed. The 3900 is estimated to develop 240 horsepower at 5900 rpm and 245 lb.-ft. of torque at just 2800 rpm. Moreover, thanks to the 3900’s torque-enhancing technologies, 90 percent of peak torque is available from 1800 rpm to 5800 rpm, enhancing the engine’s driveability and performance “feel.”

I dunno, but that doesn't seem "peaky" to me...

ikessky
11-17-2003, 08:01 AM
LOL! Well Ok Ben...you and I know it is far from that...hey but that is OK too...The term power adder is very subjective...lets just say "Stock" from the factory...in my eyes, power adder refers to FI been added after the fact at least within the realms of this discussion.... :D

Seriously?!?!?!? If you brought an L67 to any sort of sanctioned drag race, you would be put in the power adder classes. It doesn't matter if a SC came from the factory or not, it's still a power adder. I suppose next you are going to say that a turbo on a Subaru WRX isn't a power adder either because it came from the factory.... :roll:

SappySE107
11-17-2003, 11:27 AM
fuel injection? Where did this come from?

Rhedalert
11-17-2003, 11:44 AM
Here comes another 5 pages: FI vs Carb vs n-n-n-n-nocutt vs FWD :grin:

ikessky
11-17-2003, 11:48 AM
Errrr...... that's my bad Ben. That's what you get when you read stuff and reply too early in the morning!!! FI=forced induction not fuel injection. :oops:

pontiac92gp
11-17-2003, 11:55 AM
Oh, and did you know theres a 3.5L engine that has more power than your 3800 or H.O Yamaha engine? Hows 285HP n/a sound? Made by Nissan and considered the best V6 in the world.. so whats you f'n point??


phuck nissan .. there 3.5L can kiss my ass

SappySE107
11-17-2003, 12:33 PM
I dunno why the SHO or 3.5 Nissan was brought up, they are DOHC engines. 285 NA can be had from the 3.4 DOHC 60V6 as well, not even really pushing its capabilities. Its all non pushrod, which is why I let it go...this isnt a DOHC debate.

GPXSS
11-17-2003, 01:31 PM
phuck nissan .. there 3.5L can kiss my ass

:slap:

SappySE107
11-17-2003, 01:54 PM
Hahaha, chris is a nissan fan:P

nocutt
11-17-2003, 03:24 PM
LOL! Well Ok Ben...you and I know it is far from that...hey but that is OK too...The term power adder is very subjective...lets just say "Stock" from the factory...in my eyes, power adder refers to FI been added after the fact at least within the realms of this discussion.... :D

Seriously?!?!?!? If you brought an L67 to any sort of sanctioned drag race, you would be put in the power adder classes. It doesn't matter if a SC came from the factory or not, it's still a power adder. I suppose next you are going to say that a turbo on a Subaru WRX isn't a power adder either because it came from the factory.... :roll:

'Sanctioned Event' within the realm of this discussion...don't you get it!?!?
Power adder or not...it is still a stock item don't you agree? So if it is stock then add it to comparison above...it is only fair...!! Speaking of 'sanctioned Events' you don't see SC vs NA (still not within the realms of this ensuing discussion)...well typically except when the competitors opted for something different... hold on let me add this :oops: LOL!


Here comes another 5 pages: FI vs Carb vs n-n-n-n-nocutt vs FWD

Hey...I like carb, but luv FI :D

ikessky
11-17-2003, 04:07 PM
I don't care if it came from the factory as stock or if it is aftermarket. IT IS STILL A POWER ADDER!!!!!

Fine, take away the words "sanctioned event". You still have a power adder on a 3800.

SappySE107
11-17-2003, 04:18 PM
Besides, if it is just "how it came from the factory", the L67 wins every time, hand down. No mods, nothing else matters, cause its only how GM made it. There, end of discussion.

Anonymous
11-17-2003, 04:57 PM
Besides, if it is just "how it came from the factory", the L67 wins every time, hand down. No mods, nothing else matters, cause its only how GM made it. There, end of discussion.But it's boring to just buy it and run it... you gotta play with it! :D

nocutt
11-17-2003, 10:28 PM
I don't care if it came from the factory as stock or if it is aftermarket. IT IS STILL A POWER ADDER!!!!!

Fine, take away the words "sanctioned event". You still have a power adder on a 3800.

Okay darn 'Power Adder' you happy now :(
Now add it to the comparison...however I don't know why? it is "old technology" (*cough*since it's pushrod...*cough)...I have accepted that...definately not in potential...
There you have it...now that is the end of discussion :D

SappySE107
11-17-2003, 10:49 PM
This is pushrod vs pushrod...what does old technology have to do with anything? They are all used in cars at the same time...its not like we are talking 1960s vs 1980s...oh wait...WE ARE! hahahaha:P Poor 3800.

GPXSS
11-18-2003, 08:35 AM
Im not happy.. you guys havent argued enough.

I sentence you to 1 more page of back and forth babbling!

11-18-2003, 09:55 AM
SappySE107 wrote:
Besides, if it is just "how it came from the factory", the L67 wins every time, hand down. No mods, nothing else matters, cause its only how GM made it. There, end of discussion.
But it's boring to just buy it and run it... you gotta play with it!

You dumb ass...
If a car comes form the factory supercharged, then you can build up the engine in other ways, like teflon coated pistons, cams, injectors, headers, new ALUMINUM heads since IRON heads are aparently so strong that they are bad to use?? haha you dumb fucks you don't have ANY common sense

Anyways, this thread is hilaroius because its full of biased posts
It's hilaroius, anyways, come to bonnevilleclub.com and read the mods people have done, and the power we get, and the times we get, and then compare them to yours and you'll see which engine obviously comes out ahead.. Dumb fucks hahahhahahahahahahah!!!! :D :D :D

ikessky
11-18-2003, 10:59 AM
And I bet that bonnevilleclub.com doesn't have any biased posts...... :roll: My real question is, why did you even come to this site if you love 3800's and hate the 60*'s so bad? It certainly wasn't to share useful information. Whatever........ I have a Chrysler 440 at home that will rape any 3800 you guys can make. :whocares: I'm not looking to break records with my 3x00. It's my daily driver and I treat it as such.

BTW everyone! Guess how many liters per flush the toilet at work is rated at...... That's right, 3.8L! :lol:

SappySE107
11-18-2003, 11:52 AM
dan, your quoting me and ridgerunner...and then talking about mods to any engine...WTF are you talking about numbnuts? I know you can do mods retard, you should try some reading comprehension.

Fine, you tell me what the fastest NA 3800 boat is, im curious. Im curious cause im staying NA as well, L67 specs dont really matter to me. Now, for those that have added boost to the 60V6 engines, im sure the L67 is a fair comparison.

Dan, stop being a spectator, I dont think you have any knowledge about your engines with your replies. Just ahaha, im so smart, you are dumb hahaha.

geoffinbc
11-18-2003, 09:09 PM
What is the most power coming out of a 3800? Boosted, N2O, N/A whatever? The most I ever remember seeing from a 3.4L was 350hp and 400lbs of torque. On stock internals. Would a 3800 hold up to that and last? Probabally not.

Anonymous
11-18-2003, 11:32 PM
I know a 3800 has hit over 400hp at the wheels, not sure on torque.

SappySE107
11-18-2003, 11:36 PM
stock internals?

nocutt
11-19-2003, 12:26 AM
Thise is pushrod vs pushrod...what does old technology have to do with anything? They are all used in cars at the same time...its not like we are talking 1960s vs 1980s...oh wait...WE ARE! hahahaha:P Poor 3800.

you funny! :wink:

Yes I heard and saw the video of "Tiago's" 3.4L do about 350hp with 17psi of boost and N2O sprayed IC (RWD)! Then there is a 3800 NA doing FWD 13.X (where x=mid #) I forgot the MPH and then another 3800NA with a bolt-on CSC do 11.x (where X= high #), the later was with a cam. The latest or rather two latest 3800NA with well over 400hp to the wheels are from 3800 montes with the CSC all running less than 13psi...
The 3800 with the most PK power that I can think of is about 600hp, this is with a tweaked engine and a turbo...the other that come to mind are around 500hp at the crank daily drivers. 2 of them are currently still using the m90, one is sprayed the other isn't...stock internals one of 'em even went with higher Compression pistons (the sprayer :o )...modified cam however on both.

betterthanyou,
The 3800 either of 'em will hold more boost than any currently available 60 degree Gm V6. We aren't talking about just ramping boost up for a run or dyno...I mean in terms of durability...the engine was built for punishment and less finesse...it is the nature of this beast...I mean I have heard of guys running 200shots of n2o and driving home. The last project I enjoyed working on was a twincharged 3800S1, which put down 400+ to the wheels at 14psi...Non-Intercooled! The bottom end to this engines are scary...which is why I did not agree on want to agree with Ben, when he said the engine is basically 'a poor design (I am paraphrasing here...) and the L67 was just a SC placed on an NA motor'...it is far from that. The gasket technology was thought out this time around...so was the engine management...remember nothing fancy shmancy...just stuff that works, especially for those of us that like to carve niches. I am not saying the GM60 degree V6 aren't competent...I am just calling it how I see it...the iron heads are only bonuses...
That is my performance stand off...FI wise...Natural Aspiration, a harder ball game...but I think it is still much to have...however due to the drivetrain, I don't think you can accomplish enough without spinning the heck out of this motors and granted the stock heads are choked up some, complimented with a small cam. I think most of this was really due to emission factors. We put one this motors NA into a fiero, coupled with an haltech and muncie-4...this thing was reborn...however that is another story, the point is a lot of folks quote the factory hp as inefficiency...NO to keep emissions was one thing, I mean 231ci motor with 200/205...do you really think it is that hard to coax another 40 hp? A lot of you do your own chips and bolt-ons...a cam, better or ported heads and a new fuel and timing Map...um yes a stick...this will definately be a nice street machine...I don't know about comparing it to a 3x00...but believe it or not, this engines do like to rev...relatively :wink: , before someone throws a boomerang at me..lol

SappySE107
11-19-2003, 01:14 AM
I never said the L67 was an NA engine with the SC on it. It has the better internals.

Im looking for the specs on that NA 3800 car in the 13s. Lets just say I plan to take away the NA title next year...or someone else will beat me even with the same engine im using. I wanna see how much money and if the car was stripped. Dyno graphs would be nice too.

I dont know of anyone boosting a 60V6 to the point of it killing itself.

nocutt
11-19-2003, 01:37 AM
I never said the L67 was an NA engine with the SC on it. It has the better internals..



Maybe someone else wants to talk about the L67, its SC, and how its obviously not a power adder cause GM put a supercharger on an NA engine and released it. I dont comprehend how a supercharger is magically not a poweradder since GM slapped it on there...but ok.

This is exactly what you said...it might not have been what you intended to say...so I paraphrased it...



I am looking for the specs on that NA 3800 car in the 13s. Lets just say I plan to take away the NA title next year...or someone else will beat me even with the same engine im using. I wanna see how much money and if the car was stripped. Dyno graphs would be nice too.

You don't really want to see it...$$$$$ but one cannot remove the concept, the drive and the evolution or rather revolution...as a pioneer expect to "measure twice and cut twice"...


I dont know of anyone boosting a 60V6 to the point of it killing itself


Different means to the same end...however 'killing itself' becomes another debate...you don't expect to get more than 100% more power and get longevity especially on stock components...at this power level, 400hp will be catalyst to accelerated wear...although this is still not going to be the same as the NA guys who have to rev the motors to get the same power...
The 3800 NA engine is making around 240-260hp I will summise...now with the advent of the stroker 4.1...well :twisted:

SappySE107
11-19-2003, 04:56 AM
I would expect a trade off with performance for longevity. I do want to see what he spent, just cause im curious and it will make me feel so much better knowing I didnt spend that much:P

240-260 at the wheels to hit those numbers right. Do you have a link to his site or posts or anything. Clubgp search is about as useful as a balance shaft on a 60v6.

nocutt
11-19-2003, 04:41 PM
I would expect a trade off with performance for longevity. I do want to see what he spent, just cause im curious and it will make me feel so much better knowing I didnt spend that much:P

240-260 at the wheels to hit those numbers right. Do you have a link to his site or posts or anything.

"Different means to the same end" that is my theory, I try not to knock anyone in search of HP especially when you are the first to do something...would I have spent that kind of mula? maybe...maybe not?!? Custom pieces will run $$$ too, if you aren't doing the work yourself....

Just siff thru the other BS...you will see some impressive # nevertheless!!

http://www.clubgp.com/newforum/tm.asp?m=1047875&p=3&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1



Clubgp search is about as useful as a balance shaft on a 60v6

:oops: no comment...lol!

Ben,
We also know the engine (3800NA) will gladly make 300hp @ the crank, but that is going to be nothing short of a street engine!! <--- No point, just wanted to spark curiousity...hehehehehe :twisted:

SappySE107
11-19-2003, 07:33 PM
Im staying NA on mine because I dont want to spend the cash on building a motor from scratch. That and 300+ hp is fine with me for a street driven full interior car. I still havent seen the parts list for that 3800.

MaroonRegal
11-19-2003, 07:47 PM
Ok people...this thread is pointless. People on both sides of the argument are being stupid. In reality, it's rather pointless to compare the 3800 to the 3500 and 3900. None of us have owned the two new engines, none of us have even driven them. We don't know how long they last, we don't know virtually anything about them except the numbers.

We do know that the 3800 is reliable and powerful. We also know that the 3400 is reliable, and less powerful, but still more than adequately powered. To say that the 3800 is ancient and low-tech is not too far from the truth. But who says that's a bad thing? It looks like the industry will finally make the move back to RWD, an ancient - but wonderful - drivetrain configuration. Nobody bashes the 350 for being of ancient technology. Sure, it's had many advancements since it's inception. Even more than the 3800. With similar changes, the 3800 would be just as formidable, if not more so, than the 3900. That's not to say that the numbers for the 3900 are full potential either.

Also, a lot of you dislike the 3800 because of it's owners. Same goes with some of the people who dislike the 60v6s. That is absolutely ridiculous, nuff said.

The thing is, it's all irrelevant until a few years from now, when we've seen the 3500 and 3900 in action for awhile. Take a mental picture of the 3800 scene. Pontiac borrows the 3800, and the aftermarket explodes. Prices for 3800 aftermarket parts are ridiculous. I'm pretty sure there will be a similar following for whatever engine GM chooses as it's top of the line V6. I predict that you will hate the majority of the 3500/3900 following just as much as you hate the current 3800 following.

I'm bored of writing this post now.

Goodbye,
Scott.

SappySE107
11-19-2003, 08:12 PM
wanna race:P

nocutt
11-19-2003, 08:34 PM
Ok people...this thread is pointless. People on both sides of the argument are being stupid. In reality, it's rather pointless to compare the 3800 to the 3500 and 3900. None of us have owned the two new engines, none of us have even driven them. We don't know how long they last, we don't know virtually anything about them except the numbers.

We do know that the 3800 is reliable and powerful. We also know that the 3400 is reliable, and less powerful, but still more than adequately powered. To say that the 3800 is ancient and low-tech is not too far from the truth. But who says that's a bad thing? It looks like the industry will finally make the move back to RWD, an ancient - but wonderful - drivetrain configuration. Nobody bashes the 350 for being of ancient technology. Sure, it's had many advancements since it's inception. Even more than the 3800. With similar changes, the 3800 would be just as formidable, if not more so, than the 3900. That's not to say that the numbers for the 3900 are full potential either.

Also, a lot of you dislike the 3800 because of it's owners. Same goes with some of the people who dislike the 60v6s. That is absolutely ridiculous, nuff said.

The thing is, it's all irrelevant until a few years from now, when we've seen the 3500 and 3900 in action for awhile. Take a mental picture of the 3800 scene. Pontiac borrows the 3800, and the aftermarket explodes. Prices for 3800 aftermarket parts are ridiculous. I'm pretty sure there will be a similar following for whatever engine GM chooses as it's top of the line V6. I predict that you will hate the majority of the 3500/3900 following just as much as you hate the current 3800 following.

I'm bored of writing this post now.



It doesn't hurt to Dream...lol! I don't think I am stupid...maybe my point was :D Anywayz that is why it is a BB!

geoffinbc
11-19-2003, 09:06 PM
People keep saying that the 3800 has IRON heads which are great for gobs of boost. Last time I checked the 660 had iron heads avalible aswell. So being that the 660 has the option of choosing from 3 different head designs puts it ahead. We can also choose from carb, tbi, mpfi and SFI on the iron heads in a FWD or RWD application. On Aluminum heads you can choose from MPFI or SFI in a FWD fashion only but some (like raven) have shown us that FWD intakes are just has happy in RWD vehicles.

I think our versatility puts us a point ahead.

Also Maroon mentioned the 350 still using ancient technology. True it it most common in vehicles we see, but experiments went af far as and all aluminum DOHC monster (LT5). In its current form the small block incorperates a full roller valvetrain 6 bolt mains, coil on spark ignition, ECT, SFI and a whole wack of other high tech goodies reliable enough to be standard equipment on trucks which are usually the last vehicles to adapt fearing reliability problems in the truck world. Which is VERY bad karma in the North American auto industry

nocutt
11-19-2003, 09:45 PM
People keep saying that the 3800 has IRON heads which are great for gobs of boost. Last time I checked the 660 had iron heads avalible aswell. So being that the 660 has the option of choosing from 3 different head designs puts it ahead. We can also choose from carb, tbi, mpfi and SFI on the iron heads in a FWD or RWD application. On Aluminum heads you can choose from MPFI or SFI in a FWD fashion only but some (like raven) have shown us that FWD intakes are just has happy in RWD vehicles.

I think our versatility puts us a point ahead.



Believe or not...Aluminum heads do/did exist for the 3800, but only few have ever 'seen or heard' of this...I think some 'mules' might have left early in the S2 designs...how many? Don't know! Obviously Aluminum heads offer some degree of performnce and weight savings...but not in longevity due to different metallurgical qualities of the block...
Why you will want to go carb or tbi with a relatively small engine and keep some street manners is beyond me...
However like I said...the iron heads to the buick motors are only bonuses, the crux of this engines lay at the bottom end :wink:

geoffinbc
11-19-2003, 11:12 PM
Yea GM sells aluminum heads for the Buick V6. But do they fit the new SFI intake manifolds? Im not sure. And there are several reasons for going with carb or tbi. Usually you stick with what you have (like in my case) or sometimes you are transplanting an engine into some old car. Several people are swaping 660's into MGB's, Datsun 510's and Kit cars. Rason being is they are small versatile and make big power froma light package. Dont forget with a carb you can go real nuts without any ECM making a fuss.

nocutt
11-19-2003, 11:30 PM
Yea GM sells aluminum heads for the Buick V6. But do they fit the new SFI intake manifolds? Im not sure...



NO!! GM has never divulged that info, but an article surfaced years ago...with Real ppl confirming aluminum heads did/do exist...I cannot confirm or refute...the did come from respected sources though!!


...And there are several reasons for going with carb or tbi. Usually you stick with what you have (like in my case) or sometimes you are transplanting an engine into some old car. Several people are swaping 660's into MGB's, Datsun 510's and Kit cars. Rason being is they are small versatile and make big power froma light package. Dont forget with a carb you can go real nuts without any ECM making a fuss [quote]

I forgot about that...true in all cases :grin:

GPXSS
11-20-2003, 09:30 AM
I predict that you will hate the majority of the 3500/3900 following just as much as you hate the current 3800 following.


You can predict all you want.. that won't change my reasons for preferring the 60 over the 90, and neither will its 'in crowd'.



I'm bored of writing this post now.

Goodbye,
Scott.

On behalf of this board, I want to apoligize for any inconvenience we may have caused you by you gracing us with a post. :roll:

Norm '88 GT
11-20-2003, 10:04 AM
nocutt, the 3800sc advantage might have from a standing start slowly diminishes as the supercharger/engine heat soaks. Where on a warm day with a very hot engine (best of 20 trips down the strip...right?) the hot/lean NA 3900 would match, if not pull ahead, the 3800sc rattling it's knock sensor. Force inducted cars suffer from most from heat and '99 Regal GS in stock form would light up the KS in normal/light throttle driving. It ended up going 13.6s 4 years ago.

But even things out a bit by slightly boosting a 3900 with it's muliple valves and the 3800sc will look like a farm utencil that the auto media thinks it is.

Check out what a 3.0 DOHC forced with a few lbs. of pressure can do:

http://www.eclipseforums.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=77

http://www.rippmods.com/






Ok folks after crunching some numbers in the spirit of 'gearheadness' and bench racing...do not take it out of context :D

where Horsepower = (Torque x RPM)/ 5252


therefore TQ = ( HP x 5252)/RPM

I plotted numbers for 3800SC (1), 3800NA (2), 3900 (3), 3500 (4)
here goes:
(1). 240hp @ 5200 RPM= 242.4 lb/ft
(2). 205hp @ 5200 RPM= 207.0 lb/ft
(3). 240hp @ 5900 RPM= 213.6 lb/ft
(4). 200hp @ 5400 RPM= 194.5 lb/ft

Excluding all the technological cluters, if this cars were all geared the same (sticks to take better advantage of drivetrain loss and torque multiplication) and the only other factor been weight of the powertrain, (to make this more interesting this engines are all in the same car) which engine will dominate the quarter mile? (1320 only; no other circuit tracks because we all know which one will be the most fun to drive 8) )
IMO it will be a close race especially with (1) & (2)...advancement in technology or not...the low end grunt of the 3800SC will make it pull out of the hole with some serious 60', but it seems to me that the 3900 would be a screamer at the top end, however with about only 214ft/lb at its Peak torque of 5900RPM it will be very debatable since the 3800SC has more area under the curve...so it would have covered a lot of ground before it would have started to run out of steam...the 3900 can hold each gear a little longer though...???

GPXSS
11-20-2003, 11:23 AM
Norm, the 3900 we are referring to is still the 2 valve pushrod motor. I dont think anyone here disputes the fact that the new multivalve Global V6's will slaughter the 3800S/C

Norm '88 GT
11-20-2003, 11:35 AM
Opps! Your right GPXSS. I think I would still take v-timing and active intake with only half the PSI that the 3800sc has. I was ready this article:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not due until the 2004 Commodore, but here is Holden's new V6 in glorious technical detail. And doesn't it show the current horrible pushrod V6 for the dunger it is....

The global V6 engine is the first V6 engine program to address what Thomas G. Stephens, group vice president, GM Powertrain, says is a vital initiative: to develop world-class engines with fully contemporary features - such as dual overhead cams and variable valve timing - but at a competitive cost structure that allows use of the engines in a global mix of vehicles.

Conceived For Flexibility
From the global V6 engine program start in February 1999, a prime objective was to develop a highly flexible "platform" from which a matrix of possible variants could be developed. The new V6 was designed for true global duty - in addition to Australia's Commodore, future variants will power a variety of vehicles worldwide.

Several components and features will be common to all global V6 family engines:

All-aluminium construction
Dual overhead camshaft (DOHC)
4-valve-per-cylinder valvetrain
Roller-finger follower valvetrain
Continuously variable cam phasing
Electronic throttle control (ETC)
Forged-steel crankshaft
Piston-cooling oil jets
Coolant-loss protection software
GM's Oil Life System
32 bit microprocessor
Coil-on-plug ignition
"Since the start, the global V6 project team was determined to introduce a V6 engine superior to all in the industry, and in record time," said Tim Cyrus global V6 chief engineer. "The team tapped GM's vast technical expertise and developed a V6 with industry leading reliability, flexibility, package size, efficiency and value. This engine was developed by a unique team with talented members from across each of the global GM engine departments and suppliers. We have delivered an engine that can be easily integrated into most platforms, has industry leading NVH and performance with three discrete combustion systems MPFI, SIDI and turbo."

The global engine family encompasses a range of displacements. In addition to the 3.6L variant that marks the launch of the new engine in production vehicles, there also are 2.8L and 3.2L variants. Engine displacement can be expanded to 3.8L, or as large as 4.0L when the cylinder liners are eliminated in favour of special cylinder bore coatings. Smaller-displacement global engine variants are particularly crucial in world markets where market conditions and competitive issues demand high performance from smaller engines.

Whatever the displacement, the global V6 engine family promises high specific power and torque competitive with the best contemporary V6 engines. The wide range of potential global V6 engine displacements and configurations allows power and torque output perfectly suited to a variety of vehicle, platform, drive configuration or market requirements. The global V6 engine family will effortlessly produce power ranging from approximately 150kW to more than 280kW; torque output will run from 272Nm to in excess of 476Nm.

Aside from the normally aspirated/sequential port fuel injection "foundation" architecture, possible major variants include:

A spark-ignition direct-injection (SIDI) V6 of either 2.8L or 3.2L displacements. Petrol direct injection is a technology that can produce fuel-economy gains on the order of 10 percent, with no loss of performance. To be most responsive to regulatory and other market considerations, the global V6 engine design has provisions for both stratified-charge (lean-burn) and stoichiometric-charge SIDI architectures. SIDI engines are rapidly expanding in Europe and other regions with high fuel costs.
Turbocharged engines of either 2.8L or 3.2L, with a variety of power and torque outputs depending on specific content. Turbocharging remains one of the best strategies to increase power and torque without increasing engine size.
From the start, the global V6 engine was designed to power:

Front-wheel drive (FWD) platforms, in which the engine typically is situated transversely.
Rear-wheel drive (RWD) vehicles and platforms, where the engine typically is longitudinally mounted.
All-wheel drive (AWD) architectures, which can dictate either transverse or longitudinal mounting.
The global V6 engine is also suitable for parallel-hybrid application. Parallel hybrid vehicles employ a standard petrol engine and an electric motor or motors, either or both of which can propel the vehicle. Hybrid vehicles offer the prospect of greater fuel economy and can deliver other emissions and fuel-reduction possibilities.

The 3.6L Global V6 engine
The 2004 3.6L global V6 engine is the first variant of the global V6 engine family to go into production. The 3.6L global V6 develops:

194kW @ 6,500 rpm
339Nm of torque @ 2,500 rpm
The adoption of fully variable valve timing for both intake and exhaust valves - a first for any GM engine - provides outstanding flexibility, fuel economy and emissions-reduction. The four-cam variable valve timing is a key element in the global V6's control strategy, which imparts the engine with extreme flexibility. For example, 90 percent of the 3.6L V6's peak torque is available across a remarkably broad operating range: from 1,600 rpm to 5,800 rpm.

"Flexibility was very important," says Bob Jacques base engine design system engineer. "We insisted on going after high performance and high refinement at the same time."

Flexibility and Power Optimization
High feature technology is the essence of GM Powertrain's philosophy behind the global V6 engine family.

The key technologies:

A four-cam continuously variable cam phasing system. This electronically controlled, hydraulically actuated system places a "phaser" on each of the V6's four camshafts. The cam phasers enable the rotating of each camshaft relative to the crankshaft, eliminating the "fixed" camshaft positions of most engines.

Typically, fixed camshafts dictate valve openings that are a compromise between the desire to have the engine idle smoothly, produce good low-rpm torque, and high-rpm power. The global V6 engine cam phasers, which allow intake cam adjustment through 50 degrees of crankshaft rotation and 50 degrees for exhaust-cam adjustment, permit variability of valve timing to accommodate the often divergent needs for power, driveability, economy and least emissions.

In addition to enhancing power and torque and increasing fuel efficiency, the cam phasing system allowed engineers to eliminate the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system typical to most modern engines. By closing exhaust valves later than normal, the cam phasing system forces the desired amount of exhaust gas back into the combustion chamber for more complete burning in the next combustion cycle.

A dual-stage variable intake manifold (VIM). The VIM incorporates a switch in the manifold that changes the plenum volume available for resonance tuning of the inlet flow path. When the VIM switch is shut, the cylinders feed from two separate plenums. In this mode the system boosts cylinder charging in the low to mid speed range. At higher engine speeds, the VIM switch opens and the cylinders all feed from a common larger plenum which boosts cylinder charging at high engine speed.

An electronically controlled throttle (ETC) effectively coordinates the driver's intentions with the actions of the various control components. ETC eliminates the traditional cable between the accelerator pedal and the throttle body. A throttle position sensor registers the degree to which the driver is depressing the accelerator pedal and translates that movement to a stepper motor that moves the throttle. By eliminating the mechanical connection between the accelerator pedal and the engine, throttle opening can be controlled with advantageous precision.

Micro-hybrid engine control unit ECU. The global V6 ECU represents the latest in engine-management hardware, as well as the software that dictates every aspect of engine operation. The micro-hybrid design embeds all of the necessary electronic circuitry on a four-layer "sandwich" substrate that drastically reduces the size of the control unit. Moreover, the micro-hybrid design imparts a new level of robustness that allows the ECU to be engine-mounted, despite the high levels of vibration the unit experiences from its engine mounting.

The micro-hybrid ECU can withstand mounting temperatures of 110 degrees C and vibration up to 30 g. The engine mounting frees valuable space in the vehicle underbonnet area and eliminates attachment problems at the assembly plant. The 32-bit capacity of the micro-hybrid ECU is the most powerful currently used for automotive application.

Torque-based engine control strategy. Engine output for the driver's desired throttle opening is determined by the micro-hybrid ECU. The torque-based strategy calculates optimal throttle position, variable intake manifold position, continuously variable cam phasing positions and various other operational inputs and then translates that information into an ideal throttle position. The torque-based engine control strategy is superior to early electronically controlled throttle-based engine-management systems that relied only on the throttle position sensor to govern throttle opening.

Returnless fuel system. The returnless fuel system architecture eliminates fuel system recirculation thereby reducing fuel heating and evaporative emissions. A variable pressure option is used on the turbo engines. A pressure sensor located in the fuel rail provides feedback to a variable pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank. Fuel control, emissions, and driveability are significantly improved by increasing the operating fuel pressure at higher engine loads to deliver the required fuel flow but maintain precise fuel control at lower engine loads with injectors sized for optimal refinement.

The global V6 engine family will be assembled for all global applications at GM Powertrain facilities in St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada and Port Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

The Inside Story
Cylinder Block/Heads
The global V6 engine family encompasses an aluminium-intensive basic design, with all major pieces constructed of aluminium. The deep-skirt cylinder block is of precision sand cast 319 aluminium with cast-in-place iron cylinder liners. The cylinder head is a semi-permanent mould 319 aluminium casting. The upper intake manifold is composed of 319 sand-cast aluminium, while the lower manifold is made of 356-T6 aluminium.

The cylinder block incorporates six-bolt main-bearing journals and modular-type oil filter/cooler mounting point to facilitate attachment of the correct oil filter assembly. Cast in inter-bay breather vents in the engine block reduce windage losses at high speed.

Global V6 cylinder heads utilize convergent exhaust ports for maximum flow and thermal conservation, lower emissions and reduced engine mass. Multi-layer stainless steel head gaskets offer maximum durability.

The 60-degree cylinder bank angle is ideal for a V-6 configuration, and the global V6 architecture supports multiple displacement options for maximum flexibility.

Cranktrain
Strength, durability and reliability were key design points for global V6 major internal components. Weight-, NVH- and durability-optimizing materials were specified wherever possible.

The micro-alloyed 1038V forged steel crankshaft provides maximum strength and stiffness. Sinterforged steel connecting rods offer maximum durability, while aluminium pistons with fully floating 24-mm gudgeon pins and polymer-coated skirts allow tighter piston clearance for quiet cold starts.

The crankshaft sprocket employs durable, moulded-rubber "cushion rings" that absorb the noise of the camshaft drive chain engaging the sprocket teeth. A dual-mass flywheel with torsional damper eliminates gear rattle and driveline shudder in manual transmission applications.

The engine employs a Teflon crankshaft oil seal, common across GM powertrains.

Camshaft Drive
The outstanding power and efficiency of the global V6 can be directly attributed to the continuously variable cam phasing system, which incorporates an individual camshaft phaser for each of the engine's four camshafts. By rotating the camshaft relative to crankshaft angle, valve timing is infinitely variable over a 50-degree range of crankshaft rotation. This provides greater flexibility and control over engine breathing and translates to high specific power, excellent drivability and low emissions.

Cam phasing system components are designed to deliver maximum durability and outstanding NVH properties. In addition to the orifice-feed primary chain tensioner with startup reservoir and backlash control, a two-stage roller-chain camshaft drive enhances durability and reduces noise.

Valvetrain
The global V6 engine family incorporates the GM Powertrain customary OHC valvetrain design: four valves per cylinder and dual overhead camshafts with roller-finger rocker arms. The design provides maximum efficiency and power-producing potential while simultaneously reducing friction as much as possible. The low mass DOHC roller-follower valvetrain configuration operates with very low frictional losses to enhance fuel efficiency. Hydraulic lash adjusters and a three-stage roller chain cam drive minimize scheduled service on these components.

Lubrication System
Lubrication is critical to any engine, and the global V6 lubrication system is designed to assure maximum mechanical protection and reliability combined with low maintenance. In a nod to the engine's high specific output and potential for future high-performance variants, special features such as pressure-actuated piston-cooling oil jets are specified, to provide extra cooling and control piston temperatures under the most high-stress conditions.

The engine's baffled oil pan and windage tray reduce friction losses at high speed and ensure oil supply under all operating conditions. The structural aluminium oil pan employs a full-circle bolt pattern for transmission attachment, maximizing powertrain stiffness for enhanced quiet operation. A crankshaft driven gerotor oil pump with internal pressure-relief valve ensures reliable engine priming for maximum reliability, as well as quiet operation.

A six-quart capacity oil sump enables extended oil change intervals, while the sophisticated GM Oil Life System maximizes individual change requirements based on driving habits.

The top-access, cartridge style oil filter promotes ease of maintenance.

Induction/Exhaust Systems
The Global V6 induction and exhaust systems incorporate state-of-the-art design, combining a two-stage variable intake manifold (VIM) with electronic throttle control (ETC) to allow the utmost response to the driver's request for power.

Often called "drive by wire," ETC delivers maximum performance and precision coordination with other engine- and vehicle-related electronic control systems. The equal length centre feed dual plenum intake manifold achieves optimal flow performance while reducing irritating noises.

Convergent exhaust ports are designed to conserve heat for lower emissions and reduce engine mass. The exhaust manifolds are cast nodular iron with laminated heat shields. The secondary throat cuts in the inlet ports improve airflow into the cylinder and help eliminate harsh combustion noise, common to some high performance engines.

An internal fuel-rail damper integrated into the fuel rail suppresses pressure fluctuation noises in the fuel system caused by injector operation.

Electronic Controls
The global V6 engine control unit, or ECU, is the most powerful and sophisticated currently available for automotive use. Its high capacity assures that each of the global V6 electronically controlled subsystems coordinates with highest efficiency. The engine-mounted, 32-bit Bosch Motronic ME9 micro-hybrid ECU design was specified to deliver industry-leading performance in a remarkably small, durable unit. The ECU houses software that dictates every aspect of engine operation, from individual cylinder-adaptive knock-control sensing to torque-based engine control.

Ignition
The global V6 engine family features a coil-on-plug ignition system, delivering maximum energy spark and the most precise possible timing. The increased efficiency of the system contributes to lower emissions and, with fewer parts and no wires, improves quality, reliability and dependability. Extended-life spark plugs have dual-platinum electrodes and a service life of 160,000km.

A cam sensor, which monitors camshaft position, and a crankshaft position sensor are used to manage spark timing. This dual measurement system ensures extremely accurate timing throughout the life of the engine and provides a backup in the event that one of the two sensors fails.

Emissions Controls
The global V6 engine family's extremely precise emissions control comes from coordination of the engine's advanced control systems. The continuously variable cam phasing system, variable intake manifold, electronically controlled throttle and other components combine to reduce engine emissions to the greatest degree possible.

Intake and exhaust camshaft phasing provides more complete burning of exhaust gases, eliminating the need for exhaust gas recirculation. Dual close-coupled catalytic converters enable fast catalyst "lightoff," reducing emissions below LEV2 Tier II standards.

Electronic throttle control (ETC) allows more precise control of throttle opening by eliminating the mechanical link between the accelerator pedal and the engine.

The all-new global V6 engines also employ positive crankcase ventilation with NVH optimized PCV valves, evaporative emission recovery systems and wide-range oxygen sensors.

Cooling System
A high efficiency water pump and computer-optimized coolant jacket allow efficient coolant distribution. The inlet side thermostat and low volume coolant jackets provide rapid, consistent, warm-up behaviour, channelling heat to the passenger compartment more quickly in winter.

Extended-life coolant requires minimal service and less frequent changes.

The global V6 cooling system, as in some other GM Powertrain engines, incorporates unique coolant-loss protection software. This feature enables the engine to operate at reduced power output when there has been a total loss of engine coolant, allowing the driver to reach a secure location.

Covers
Curved injection-moulded thermoset composite camshaft covers with vibration-isolated perimeter gaskets and sparkplug radial lip seals and a contoured aluminium front cover attenuate undesirable vibrations and resonant periods. Mechanically attached multi-layer steel damping panels inside the cover are designed to provide additional damping to further reduce noise.

2004 3.6L Global V6 Engine (LY7) Specifications
Configuration: 3.6L 60-degree DOHC V-6

Peak Power (SAE net): Estimated 190kW @ 6,500 rpm

Peak Torque: 339 Nm @ 2,800 rpm;
(90% of peak produced from 1,600 rpm to 5,800 rpm)

Displacement (cc): 3,564

Bore x Stroke: 94 mm x 85.6 mm

Valvetrain: Dual overhead camshaft
4-valve-per-cylinder
Roller-finger followers valvetrain
Hydraulic lash adjusters
Four-cam continuously variable cam phasing
Two-stage roller-chain camshaft drive

Variable Cam Timing: Intake: 132 degrees ATDC initial timing
50 crankshaft degrees advance authority

Exhaust: 111 degrees BTDC initial timing
50 crankshaft degrees retard authority

Compression Ratio: 10.2:1

Bore Centers: 103 mm

Firing Order: 1-2-3-4-5-6

Fuel Shutoff: 6,700 rpm

Engine Idle Speed: 600 rpm

Fuel System: Sequential port fuel injection (returnless)

Engine Management: Torque-based; Bosch Motronic ME 9 32-bit micro-hybrid controller

Intake Manifold: Dual-plenum, equal-length with 2-position variable volume control (resonance tuned)

Throttle: 68-mm single bore; electronic control (ETC)

Ignition: Individual coil-on-plug; individual cylinder knock control

Fuel Requirement: Premium fuel recommended

Emissions Controls: Dual close-coupled catalytic converters (1.15L ultra-thinwall ceramic)
Positive crankcase ventilation (PCV)
Intake- and exhaust-cam phasers (EGR)
Evaporative emissions system

Assembly Sites: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Port Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Material Applications

Block Material: Aluminium, precision sand-cast 319 with cast-in-place iron liners

Cylinder Head Material: Aluminium, semi-permanent mould 319

Intake Manifold: Upper: Aluminium, sand-cast 319
Lower: Aluminium, 356-T6

Exhaust Manifold: High-silicon moly cast iron

Camshaft Covers: Injection compression thermoset composite; vibration isolated

Front Cover: Diecast 380 aluminium; internal multilayer damping panels

Crankshaft: Forged steel

Connecting Rods: Sinterforged steel

Pistons: Aluminium, polymer-coated skirts, full-floating wristpins

Main Bearing Caps: 6 bolt caps, copper-infiltrated sintered steel

Oil Pan: Structural diecast aluminium, steel windage and baffle plates

Additional features: Pressure-actuated piston-cooling oil jets
Extended-life sparkplugs, coolant, accessory belts
Cartridge-style, top-access oil filter
Oil-level sensor
Wide-range oxygen sensors

Copyright 1998-2003 AutoWeb Pty Limited &
Web Publications Pty Ltd All Rights Reserved

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ikessky
11-20-2003, 11:39 AM
Well Norm, congrats on the longest post this thread has seen! :lol:

11-20-2003, 12:59 PM
Do you idiots who think the 3800 and its systems are out of date actually KNOW anything about it?

If you get into the engine, you would realize there are actually some fairly advanced technologies contained in it. There are knock retard sensors incorporated into the engine which detect pre-combustion before it happens, and the system then compensates by retarding the engine so you don't have combustion on the piston up-stroke. Unless you want that of course..... You can easily diminsh the knock by adding a simple intercooler which both Thrasher, and Intense-Racing offer.

Did you know that iron heads aren't bad? Think about it.. What is stronger, and longer lasting? Iron, or Aluminium... A simple lesson in chemistry would teach you that iron, is the stronger and longer lasting of the two.

This might come as a HUGE shocker to you, but did you know you can buy titanium teflon coated pistons? :o :o Man thats crazy isn't it! Did you also know you can get teflon coated heads? :o :o :o OH MY GOD! Did you know that teflon on teflon is said to have less friction than ice on ice? :o :o Take a breath, so your brains don't overload now... But i'm guessing your aluminum heads are better than that. And stronger then titanium, even though titanium is one of the strongest know metals on this planet...

Our 3800 has been driven into the ground since day one, and its still runs strong as hell at 160,000km's and doesn't burn a drop of oil. The 3800 wasn't designed as a cheap, compact, light, short-term engine unlike some others i can mention :321:
It's built to be ABUSED throughout its life, and it takes it, and LASTS.

Would you shut your hole about the supercharger being a "power adder" too? We know a supercharger is a power adder you mofo... Unless there are some people in here that think its designed to heat your speakers.. (Wouldn't surprise me in here!!) Your rediculous engine is DOHC, which the 3800 is not. So if we can't use SC's to compare, then your DOHC doesn't compare either.

Almost all 3800's make it to 300000+km's EASILY with regular oil changes.
I don't really understand.

BETTERTHANYOU makes a very good point. Do you ever here complaints about the ancient technology in a 350, or 454?? Just because its older, doesn't mean its not better than what you own it just means that older technology has been IMPROVED upon and been around and all the bugs have been worked out. I would much rather spend my dollar on a proven engine, than a new engine with brand new ideas that haven't been around for more than 10 years.

So, grow up and get your ugly head out of your dirty ass.

Also, would you quit complaining about how expensive things are for 3800's! It just means 3800 owners are willing to spend the extra dollar for better quality parts. I would rather pay the extra buck for something than get a shitty part, like you must be aquiring.
If your a poor bastard who can't afford to spend money on aftermarket, then i suggest you get a 3400.

Who ever says they don't read longs posts, thats nice? Your problem not mine! Dumbass. Just because one insignificant person says they didn't read it, (when in reality they probably did!) that doesn't mean no body else has!

BTW Nice information NORM!

11-20-2003, 01:04 PM
I hate to get off the argument for a minute, but you guys HAVE to check this out, it's pretty amazing.
Get over the fact that its a 3800 powered car and just check it out, it's pretty damn sweet!

http://www.intense-racing.com/video/john1.mpeg

This is also pretty sweet although its so far from stock that an ordinary person probably wouldn't recognize the engine as a 3800 although thats what it ultimately is...

http://www.intense-racing.com/video/Turbo_10998.mpg

SappySE107
11-20-2003, 01:22 PM
Dan, you are a moron. If you think we dont know about knock sensors and teflon coating...you are merely elevating your ego at the cost of looking like a jackass. Just don't post anymore, cause quite frankly everyone but YOU is putting up good info on the 3800. All you are doing is dragging 3800 owners down with your insults and idiotic ramblings for shit we have discussed....already....in this thread.

This thread isn't about the DOHC. I do have to ask....are you saying DOHC is a power adder, cause that is the only reason I dont care to simply discuss the L67 with its supercharger as a basis for 3800. If you want to talk about DOHC engines, you can go to the DOHC section.
60V6 engines last quite a while, with gas and oil, and probably fixing the lower intake gaskets 1 time to fix GMs mistake. The one thing 3800s can't seem to do though....resistance to fire. Hmmm, i bring this up because I see more eingine bay fires from the 3800s than I do from the 60V6 (unless you could the Fiero...that thing has some issues too it seems).

So for everyone else, here is what dan is saying in every post. "you are dumb, I am smart, blah blah blah" You are about to get banned for being an idiot, just letting you know. I have let it go because of the nature of this thread....and I let you insult me and others already because of this thread. However, you aren't doing anyone any favors by posting...you aren't following the thread, you aren't discussing anything new, and I just dont like you anyway.

Cliff8928
11-20-2003, 01:51 PM
I was ready this article:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not due until the 2004 Commodore, but here is Holden's new V6 in glorious technical detail. And doesn't it show the current horrible pushrod V6 for the dunger it is....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


haha... they called the 3800 a dunger...

Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

ikessky
11-20-2003, 02:09 PM
Would you shut your hole about the supercharger being a "power adder" too? We know a supercharger is a power adder you mofo... Unless there are some people in here that think its designed to heat your speakers.. (Wouldn't surprise me in here!!) Your rediculous engine is DOHC, which the 3800 is not. So if we can't use SC's to compare, then your DOHC doesn't compare either.
Have you even read all the posts in this thread??? I believe it was nocutt who was saying that he didn't think it's a power adder because it came from the factory. Sorry for trying to get correct information out to a person who seemed confused.


Who ever says they don't read longs posts, thats nice? Your problem not mine! Dumbass. Just because one insignificant person says they didn't read it, (when in reality they probably did!) that doesn't mean no body else has!
BTW Nice information NORM!
You really don't read the posts do you? My comment was that it was the longest post. I did not state that I didn't read it because of its length.

You know Dan, I actually thought about getting a L67 for my car. It would drop in with zero modifications other than getting a new computer. One of the reasons I decided not to is because I heard that GM was going to discontinue making these and go with the 3900. The other reason is price. For my application, I can pretty much get standard parts that don't cost an arm and a leg. I don't need custom billet everything. I don't mind paying the money for quality parts, but I think some of the parts that are out there are pretty pricey. As I've said before, I have a 440 that I can build with lots of power for a pretty decent price.
If you want to talk more (minus all the insults and what not) just PM me. I'm not on this board to sit and fight with people. I'm here to talk about cars and engines and stuff relating to them. As you can see, I'm interested in all kinds of makes and models (even the 3800, although I don't openly admit it here! :wink: ). Personally, I haven't really had a good experience with the 3800 crowd and you are not really showing me anything that different. Again, PM me if you want to talk more about all of this stuff.

GPXSS
11-20-2003, 02:18 PM
This might come as a HUGE shocker to you, but did you know you can buy titanium teflon coated pistons? Man thats crazy isn't it!

Yeah thats crazy.. Link me to some, i dare you. Make sure you read Dr. Jay's posts correctly before you link to over there so you don't make yourself look like a dumbass.


Did you also know you can get teflon coated heads? OH MY GOD! Did you know that teflon on teflon is said to have less friction than ice on ice?

Id bet its not teflon at all, but just a simple dry film lubricant. Besides, why on earth would i need them on heads? Can you explain that one to me?


But i'm guessing your aluminum heads are better than that. And stronger then titanium, even though titanium is one of the strongest know metals on this planet...


Actually no.. Ive never seen titanium heads, and i bet neither have you.

How about you quit babbling since you are so bored in Computer class and come back when you know what you are talking about.

I swear, some peoples kids :roll:

Rhedalert
11-20-2003, 03:55 PM
- Hmm...last time I checked, I dont remember aluminum heads disintegrating and turning to dust after 15 years. Whats that all aboot?

cutlassdude96
11-20-2003, 04:21 PM
:sucks:

Anonymous
11-20-2003, 06:57 PM
:| :werd: :|

Homer
11-20-2003, 11:56 PM
Did you know that iron heads aren't bad? Think about it.. What is stronger, and longer lasting? Iron, or Aluminium... A simple lesson in chemistry would teach you that iron, is the stronger and longer lasting of the two.

This might come as a HUGE shocker to you, but did you know you can buy titanium teflon coated pistons?

First do you know why engineers went to aluminium, it is lighter, not becasue it lasts longer or is stronger. People have know this for hundreds of years. But the a lot of people feel that the advantage of having lighter heads out weighs the disadvantage of less strenght and reduced life.

Second, I searched all over DuPonts website for this teflon coated piston, and they have no records of it but they show every other project they are doing. Also I never knew the piston rubbed on the cylinder walls, all this time I thought it was the piston rings, lmao.

Homer
11-21-2003, 12:03 AM
Back on subject, 3800 vs 3400/3500. I think that gm is aming there future more at the 3400/3500 rather than the 3800. Look at what these engines are going in, the 3800s are going in mostly buicks, while the 3400/3500 is going into more cars that younger people are going to buy. My mom has a buick 3800 S/C in her buick, its a nice engine for an everyday driver, but I presonally wouldnt buy a 3800 to tune it up and try and make it fast.

Cliff8928
11-21-2003, 12:56 AM
A whole bunch of crap that isn't worth reading again

1) my 2.8 was still perfectly fine at 190,000kms (usually reaching 6,000 RPM at least once a day)... Despite having some metal object dropped down the intake and making one head/piston look like it was the victim of a shotgun shot... It was just changed to gain the power/displacement of the 3400... and I'm sure the JY that it was sent to as a core (a friend of the family) will resell it to someone else and it will live on for years to come...

2) 350s and 454s make sense because they are 90 V8s... a 90 V6 just doesn't make sense at all unless you LIKE that balance shaft...


Cliff Scott
89 BerettaGT
89 Volvo740

nocutt
11-21-2003, 01:20 AM
Even if the 3800NA/SC was made to run a billion HP, with even "state of the art blah!blah!!blah!!"...guess what? It all comes down to the same thing on this board...'angle of separation' which in effect brings about the 'balance shaft' topic...this is like a doggie chasing its tail...This thread will always belong to the 60* (especially the fanatics :wink: ) it is not a matter of what can be proven or refuted...that darn 'balance shaft' always seem to irk a whole lot of folks :roll: Well I take a bow...
7 pages not bad :D

Anonymous
11-21-2003, 02:23 AM
I do think the balance shaft is stupid, but you can also argue that the 90* block has more meat to it than a 60* block, so there is a strength advantage there. But being 90*, its heavier. Same shit different day. This thread is stail but for some reason I still read all the posts. And please don't quote any of the crap I have just said, cause I don't want to hear any more about it.
:roll:

SappySE107
11-21-2003, 03:57 AM
Then dont post in it. Anyone got pics of the 3800 block? Ive never seen just the block.

GPXSS
11-21-2003, 08:43 AM
Anyone got pics of the 3800 block? Ive never seen just the block.

http://www.thrashercharged.com/tech_htm/engine_tear.shtm

at least a few things the 3800 has going for it,
oil pump is in the timing cover, so im guessing it can be replaced without pulling the engine, and there is no oil pump driveshaft.

the bottom end has more side area so that the caps sit up in the block, rather than being exposed.

I dont buy that the area's around the cylinders are stronger than on a 60, we have the entire lifter valley area tying the 2 banks together.. the 3800 is very open.. almost like running twin inline 3's.

I guess overall I just prefer the compactness of the 60 more than anything. You can virtually fit it in any application that used an I-4, and probably double your torque output instantly.

All you 3800 guys, id really like it if you'd bring some advantage data to the table here instead of "3800 rox U Sux0rz!". In all of these threads we have made, not once has someone come to the plate with measurement specs.

Norm '88 GT
11-21-2003, 08:55 AM
Autospeed is a subscription website. Sorry about the band width.

ikessky
11-21-2003, 11:12 AM
I wasn't trying to offend you Norm. Just giving you some crap! :wink:

bszopi
11-21-2003, 12:10 PM
I think all that info is already posted on the actual site somewhere....

brian89gp
11-21-2003, 01:27 PM
Anyone got pics of the 3800 block? Ive never seen just the block.

http://www.thrashercharged.com/tech_htm/engine_tear.shtm

at least a few things the 3800 has going for it,
oil pump is in the timing cover, so im guessing it can be replaced without pulling the engine, and there is no oil pump driveshaft.

the bottom end has more side area so that the caps sit up in the block, rather than being exposed.

I dont buy that the area's around the cylinders are stronger than on a 60, we have the entire lifter valley area tying the 2 banks together.. the 3800 is very open.. almost like running twin inline 3's.

I guess overall I just prefer the compactness of the 60 more than anything. You can virtually fit it in any application that used an I-4, and probably double your torque output instantly.

All you 3800 guys, id really like it if you'd bring some advantage data to the table here instead of "3800 rox U Sux0rz!". In all of these threads we have made, not once has someone come to the plate with measurement specs.

The deep skirt block with crossbolted mains is what makes the 3800 folk brag so much about handling gobs of power.

11-21-2003, 02:26 PM
brian89gp wrote:
The deep skirt block with crossbolted mains is what makes the 3800 folk brag so much about handling gobs of power.

You are wrong there. Most people in 3800 forums don't sit around and brag about how our engine can handle gobs of power... Because both the 3400 and the 3800 have their disadvantages and their advantages, and there is nothing you can do to change that. So quit bitching and getting mad when someone legitamately puts you people in your place.

The facts are there, and 3800 owners don't drive in a 3400, and 3400 owners dont drive around in 3800's... Your opinions are biased because you drive that engine. And its so blatently obvious! But, being a proud owner of a 3800, i won't sit here and say the 3800 is better then the 3400, and i certainly won't say the 3400 is better then the 3800, because anybody can argue it either way and win. It's a stalemate. Us 3800 owners won't be influenced by the complaints made by 3400 owners about our engines. The same is said vice versa.

I haven't heard many good arguments anyways going either way, from anyone in this entire thread! I know immature people with no lives are going to say something like "blah blah blah, you think your better thats all you think.. You think this, you feel this... We know this, we know that, we are this we have this, we can do this, blah blah blah" Give it a rest, get legitamate arguments, because people on the other side of the argument have the exact same mindset against you. I was actually thinking of buying a 3400 engine before i found this thread to build on and customize, like we have done to our 3800, but when i read some of the posts people leave on here i got turned right off because i refuse to ever become as naive or pathetic and discriminant as most 3400 owners on here strike me as. :P 8) :wink: :321:

Anonymous
11-21-2003, 02:42 PM
I was actually thinking of buying a 3400 engine before i found this thread to build on and customize, like we have done to our 3800, but when i read some of the posts people leave on here i got turned right off because i refuse to ever become as naive or pathetic and discriminant as most 3400 owners on here strike me as. :P 8) :wink: :321:

Poor excuse :roll:

I'd buy an engine for the engine, not cause of what people on the INTERNET think of you! Christ...

ikessky
11-21-2003, 02:45 PM
I'd buy an engine for the engine, not cause of what people on the INTERNET think of you!

I'll give that a stamp of approval! :werd:

Rhedalert
11-21-2003, 02:46 PM
i won't sit here and say the 3800 is better then the 3400

might wanna check your other posts

SappySE107
11-21-2003, 03:32 PM
This thread is done, and dan is gone. He isn't smart enough to be in a conversation about 3800s.